The BASIC Difference between Arminians and Calvinists

[eternally-gratefull]

If you don't believe the T then you end up having men giving God help in Salvation. You end up causing some scripture to contradict other scripture in order to get rid of T.

In order to not have this happen you have to start out with T. And, as you have seen, once you have the T the rest falls into place....

This having to give God help in salvation is one of the worst arguments I have heard

if a man is drowning or is trapped and will die if not rescued because he is hopeless in his situation, so he does NOTHING and in faith let’s the rescuer save him

he did not HELP the rescuer save him, the rescuer did all the work,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

They're not unbiblical.

The rejection of the points of Calvinism is unbiblical.

I'm not saying that Calvinism is perfect. But TULIP is completely biblical.

People who reject Calvinism don't do it because it is unbiblical. They reject it because they don't like its implications.

This is not true

and is actually quite a prideful statement

any person of any belief system could use the same argument, it does not prove a thing, all it does at best is further push the other away from any meaningful discussion

 

[eternally-gratefull]

They are biblical. Very easily shown.

The reason you can't handle these biblical truths is because you don't want to believe the bible is against your own philosophy.

....

this could be a reason you hold to calvinism, because to reject the 5 points would be against your own philosophy.

i thought you were better than this bro? Your using many of the same strawman points others use, which do not help you

 

[John146]

That's one BIG assumption. Not one I would make.

How could you read the Psalms and think no one before the cross had the Holy Spirit?

But yeah. The disciples rarely understood anything the Lord told them. Until after His crucifixion and resurrection.

King Agrippa understood the OT Scriptures and yet did not have the Holy Spirit. This misinterpretation of 1 Corinthians 2:14 is a dangerous road to travel.

 

[crossnote]

Yes, but do you believe one must be regenerated first by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

I believe regeneration is instantaneous and occurs simultaneously with faith in the Gospel message. (see John 3:3-14).

 

[crossnote]

It's the Holy Spirit that first must convict one of their sin in order to see 'their need of a Savior.

Do you mean 'sins 'in general ?

Their sin of unbelief...

"And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
(Joh 16:8-11)

 

[throughfaith]

This having to give God help in salvation is one of the worst arguments I have heard

if a man is drowning or is trapped and will die if not rescued because he is hopeless in his situation, so he does NOTHING and in faith let’s the rescuer save him

he did not HELP the rescuer save him, the rescuer did all the work,

Why do you have a man drowning thats not already a corpse in your analogy ? Are not all dead in Calvinism ?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Why do you have a man drowning thats not already a corpse in your analogy ? Are not all dead in Calvinism ?

Sorry but do not understand your question.

i was using an example of how one can be saved and not save himself or help the rescuer to,save him

 

[throughfaith]

Sorry but do not understand your question.

i was using an example of how one can be saved and not save himself or help the rescuer to,save him

no its prob my wires crossed, apologies.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

no its prob my wires crossed, apologies.

No prob

 

[Grandpa]

This is not true

and is actually quite a prideful statement

any person of any belief system could use the same argument, it does not prove a thing, all it does at best is further push the other away from any meaningful discussion

Roger.

What do you tell someone who says the theology derived from scripture is unbiblical?

I look at it and try to find the reason someone would say that. Its obviously biblical. So there must be some other reason to state a lie like a lot of people have done.

So what is the reason for the lie? It obviously goes against peoples self-will. People don't like that.

 

[Grandpa]

this could be a reason you hold to calvinism, because to reject the 5 points would be against your own philosophy.

i thought you were better than this bro? Your using many of the same strawman points others use, which do not help you

Until it becomes a serious conversation with scripture being used all that's happening is people stating their opinion.

That's my opinion.

 

[Grandpa]

King Agrippa understood the OT Scriptures and yet did not have the Holy Spirit. This misinterpretation of 1 Corinthians 2:14 is a dangerous road to travel.

If he understood the OT scripture he would be a Christian.

I don't see why the Truth of scripture would be a dangerous road to travel.

I guess I've already been through the Truth of Scripture changing all my assumptions...

 

[John146]

If he understood the OT scripture he would be a Christian.

I don't see why the Truth of scripture would be a dangerous road to travel.

I guess I've already been through the Truth of Scripture changing all my assumptions...

The dangerous road is the belief that someone is saved and born again before hearing the gospel of their salvation.

 

[Grandpa]

The dangerous road is the belief that someone is saved and born again before hearing the gospel of their salvation.

Not hearing.

You can hear all you want.

Understanding and receiving is what I am talking about. The dangerous road would be saying, against scripture, that you understood and received the Spiritual things of God, by your own wisdom and your own understanding.

Everything from God is a gift. A man can receive nothing unless it is given from heaven.

 

[John146]

Not hearing.

You can hear all you want.

Understanding and receiving is what I am talking about. The dangerous road would be saying, against scripture, that you understood and received the Spiritual things of God, by your own wisdom and your own understanding.

Everything from God is a gift. A man can receive nothing unless it is given from heaven.

A lost man does not need the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, nor to be already born again, to hear and believe the gospel. The Holy Spirit can lead a person, through the preaching of His word, to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. It's up to the person to believe.

1. hear
2. believe
3. sealed by the Spirit

 

[Grandpa]

This having to give God help in salvation is one of the worst arguments I have heard

if a man is drowning or is trapped and will die if not rescued because he is hopeless in his situation, so he does NOTHING and in faith let’s the rescuer save him

he did not HELP the rescuer save him, the rescuer did all the work,

What was it that showed the man he needed to be rescued in the first place?

His own wisdom and understanding? Or was it REVEALED to him by God?

If it is the mans own wisdom and understanding, and the man has to have this wisdom and understanding in order to "choose" God then only the Wise and Knowledgeable can be saved.

If it is God who reveals to man his poor condition WHICH LEADS TO HIS SALVATION, then Salvation truly is not of works, nor of mans wisdom or understanding. But wholly of God.


Not sure why this is so controversial to Saved Christians... Why can't God be in Charge? And why can't we just simply be grateful for the gifts and blessings He has bestowed on us?

 

[Grandpa]

A lost man does not need the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, nor to be already born again, to hear and believe the gospel. The Holy Spirit can lead a person, through the preaching of His word, to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. It's up to the person to believe.

1. hear
2. believe
3. sealed by the Spirit

Didn't I already post these scriptures for you? Did you not understand them?

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

How did the natural man, in your philosophy, receive the Holy Spirit BEFORE he was regenerated?

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

 

[John146]

How did the natural man, in your philosophy, receive the Holy Spirit BEFORE he was regenerated?

He doesn't. Scripture is clear.

1. One must hear the gospel
2. One must trust/believe the gospel
3. One is sealed by the Holy Spirit

You have #3 coming first.

The simplicity of the gospel can be understood by any man.

 

[Grandpa]

He doesn't. Scripture is clear.

1. One must hear the gospel
2. One must trust/believe the gospel
3. One is sealed by the Holy Spirit

You have #3 coming first.

The simplicity of the gospel can be understood by any man.

No. Its mostly considered foolishness by those who are perishing.

Only to those who are saved, regenerated, believe, is it the Power of God.