Would it be safer to die early in Lord ?

[throughfaith]

As a matter of fact, when I tell someone about Christ, I do mention the need to continue in faith. Salvation is not just a one-time confession, but requires faith from beginning to the end. This is why I posted the "if" scriptures. They demonstrate that salvation is conditional based on continuing in faith. The scriptures I posted speak for themselves.

So do you tell them salvation is a ' chance or an opportunity?

 

[throughfaith]

Greetings throughfaith!

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"Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds. But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence—if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creaturee under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

"But Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are His house, if we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope of which we boast.

"We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly to the end the assurance we had at first. "

"Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, and in which you stand firm. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
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In all of the scriptures above, notice that our salvation is conditional upon continuing in faith as demonstrated by the use of the word "if" And rightly so, because scripture states that we are saved by grace through faith.

* We have been reconciled and will be presented holy, unblemished and blameless 'if' we continue in faith, established and firm.

* We are Christ's house 'if' we hold firmly to our confidence and our hope

* We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

* By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

What happens when a believer stops having faith?

"My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, consider this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover over a multitude of sins."

In the scripture above, it is obvious that James is addressing believers by referring to them as 'My brothers.' In order to wander away from the truth, one would already have to have been in the truth. The wandered state is speaking about apostasy, i.e. going back to willfully living according to the sinful nature. Apostasy is not to be confused with the sins that we commit in our walk in Christ. Notice that while in that state of apostasy the person will have been accumulating sin and on his way to death. We also have other scriptures demonstrating our need to continue in faith as the requirement salvation.

"But suppose that servant is wicked and says in his heart, ‘My master will be away a long time.’ And he begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day he does not expect and at an hour he does not anticipate. Then he will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The reference to that servant "beating his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards," is referring to the believer who apostatizes by turning back and willfully living according to the sinful nature. I emboldened the words "servant" and "my master" for those who would attempt to say, "well then, he was never a true believe." The scripture above is speaking about a true servant who apostatizes. We have other examples as well:

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the keeper of the vineyard. He cuts off every branch in Me that bears no fruit, and every branch that does bear fruit, He prunes to make it even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in Me, and I will remain in you. Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me.

I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned.

I would remind those reading, that Jesus is speaking to His disciples as well as to all believers. The fruit that Jesus is referring to is our taking on the nature of God more and more as we continue going from faith to faith. It is synonymous with our being transformed into the image of Christ and the sanctification of the Spirit which is the process of our being made holy. Therefore, if we stop having faith, then we are no longer bearing fruit and we are no longer being transformed into the image of Christ. Regarding fruitfulness, Jesus said "some bring forth some thirty, some sixty and some a hundred fold. We all have different degrees of fruitfulness. All we need to be doing is moving forward in fruitfulness, which is accomplished by continuing from faith to faith.



















'

How's your fruit stocks ? Are you doing enough ? would you know if your fruit levels were short ? What if God has already cut you off and your just coasting along unaware?

 

[Scribe]

I understand well the world view of those that hold to loss of salvation and the verses they use . My point was about the inconsistencies of the position.

There are no inconsistencies in those verses which were just a few that came to mind in the moment to demonstrate the mindset that the scriptures teach.
Our understanding should be formed by scripture rather than a long-winded philosophy to explain a "what if" argument we invent.
The inconsistency comes from trying to invent a philosophical reasoning that the scriptures do not present.
If we would simply abandon preconceived philosophical arguments and adopt the natural and plain interpretation one would get if they were on a desert island having only the Bible as their text and no ancient philosophical arguments to filter things through they would have no problem understanding what is required for salvation.

 

[bojack]

Didn't Paul say ''if you go back to relying on works of the law then there remains no sacrifice ?

 

[Ahwatukee]

What if we recieve Jesus on Monday but die on tue? how long do we have to continue in the faith to be saved ?

If a person dies the next day after receiving Christ they are saved just like the thief on the cross.

 

[Ahwatukee]

So do you tell them salvation is a ' chance or an opportunity?

Neither! I simply preach Christ. Salvation is neither chance nor opportunity, for the scriptures make clear that the names of those whom God foreknew and predestined, their names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. However, those who are called must continue in faith, for names can and will be blotted out of the book of life. Our part is faith.

 

[throughfaith]

There are no inconsistencies in those verses which were just a few that came to mind in the moment to demonstrate the mindset that the scriptures teach.
Our understanding should be formed by scripture rather than a long-winded philosophy to explain a "what if" argument we invent.
The inconsistency comes from trying to invent a philosophical reasoning that the scriptures do not present.
If we would simply abandon preconceived philosophical arguments and adopt the natural and plain interpretation one would get if they were on a desert island having only the Bible as their text and no ancient philosophical arguments to filter things through they would have no problem understanding what is required for salvation.

I'm happy to discuss what the bible says . Tge

If a person dies the next day after receiving Christ they are saved just like the thief on the cross.

Now re read my Op . Thats my point . Living longer in the Lord is not best . Look at how safe it was for those fortunate enough to live only a day or perhaps a few hours .

 

[Ahwatukee]

How's your fruit stocks ? Are you doing enough ? would you know if your fruit levels were short ? What if God has already cut you off and your just coasting along unaware?

I don't worry about my fruitfulness. It is something that takes place as I continue in faith, just as it is with every believer. Also, regarding fruitfulness, we are not saved by meeting a quota of fruitfulness or quota of works. Bearing fruit (growing in the characteristics of God) is done through the Holy Spirit as we continue in faith which is sanctification (the process of being made holy). When believers bear fruit, God continues to prune them so that we can become more fruitful. (John 15:1-2)

First of all, Jesus said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you." So, if I am continuing in faith, I can count on His promise. In addition, if God were to cut me off, I would not be able to stand in Christ. As it is, I meditate on God and His word night and day and that because the Spirit dwells in me.

 

[throughfaith]

There are no inconsistencies in those verses which were just a few that came to mind in the moment to demonstrate the mindset that the scriptures teach.
Our understanding should be formed by scripture rather than a long-winded philosophy to explain a "what if" argument we invent.
The inconsistency comes from trying to invent a philosophical reasoning that the scriptures do not present.
If we would simply abandon preconceived philosophical arguments and adopt the natural and plain interpretation one would get if they were on a desert island having only the Bible as their text and no ancient philosophical arguments to filter things through they would have no problem understanding what is required for salvation.

The inconsistencies are that some teach its harder to stay saved than to recieve Jesus . We see this theology in Mormonism and Jehovah witness teaching . That salvation is a process of good works, commitment , endurance , perseverance, the ' preaching work ' and what ever else the list maybe. The Gospel contradicts these teachings . Whist some do not hold to the false view of Jesus their use of the same verses to teach loss of salvation is the same .

 

[throughfaith]

Neither! I simply preach Christ. Salvation is neither chance nor opportunity, for the scriptures make clear that the names of those whom God foreknew and predestined, their names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. However, those who are called must continue in faith, for names can and will be blotted out of the book of life. Our part is faith.

So God saw ahead of time a person would believe and then later fall away , but bothered to Save him in the first place?

 

[bojack]

Neither! I simply preach Christ. Salvation is neither chance nor opportunity, for the scriptures make clear that the names of those whom God foreknew and predestined, their names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. However, those who are called must continue in faith, for names can and will be blotted out of the book of life. Our part is faith.

Doesn't that mean according to God's criteria He knows us?

 

[throughfaith]

The weakness of your argument is that it is an attempt at philosophy with no ground rules but those you make up as you speak. What sounds logical to you does not sound logical to another.
What do the scriptures teach? Without holiness no man shall see the Lord.
The Lord knows whos are his and let every man that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

Let us continue to have the scriptures in our minds rather than 10,000 pages of philosophy that attempt to twist scriptures to say what we wish they said.

From the above are you saying we have to achieve ' holiness ' , depart from all iniquity, Take up a cross ,follow Jesus ( which every one who heard this failed and fled ) to BE saved ? And this is not works salvation how ?

 

[Ahwatukee]

I'm happy to discuss what the bible says . Tge

Now re read my Op . Thats my point . Living longer in the Lord is not best . Look at how safe it was for those fortunate enough to live only a day or perhaps a few hours .

Well, God is in control of when believers die and how they die. It's not as though we had a choice to cut our lives short so as to escape the testing of our faith through different situations that God allows to take place in our lives.

Those people who die soon after receiving Christ are surely saved. However, they will have little or no rewards for works from the Lord. But again, the time of the believers dying is not in their hands, but God's.

"Behold, I am coming soon, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done."

But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

 

[Ahwatukee]

So God saw ahead of time a person would believe and then later fall away , but bothered to Save him in the first place?

NO! Salvation is not based on God looking into the future to see who would believe and do good works. For God is the One who did the choosing based on His own will and that before the world began.

"And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb who was slain." (Rev.13:8)

"And those who dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet will be." (Rev.17:8)

"Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world."

The scriptures above demonstrate that before the world even began, that there were names that were not written in the book of life and there were names that were written. And it is by God's Sovereign will and His reasons that this was done. In addition, consider the following:

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Not only that, but Rebecca’s children were conceived by one man, our father Isaac. Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand, not by works but by Him who calls, she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” So it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not! For He says to Moses:

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.

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Believers are called, but they still have to continue in faith. For without faith it is impossible to please God.

 

[BolusOfDoom]

Now re read my Op . Thats my point . Living longer in the Lord is not best . Look at how safe it was for those fortunate enough to live only a day or perhaps a few hours .

This is no abstraction for me. I’m 50 years old, and at 25 was a very active traditional evangelical. Saved in the conservative Protestant sense.

One night back then, I came down with some serious respiratory problems. High fever, coughing up bloody foam, weakness, a bluish tint to my lips and nails. It was sepsis from an infected sore throat that crept down my windpipe.

I drove myself to the hospital and was put in an induced coma on a vent for two weeks and came very near death. Coded twice due to an antibiotic allergy, then got MRSA from an infected femoral line that required the most expensive antibiotic at the time. So, without the latest medical science of the time, I would have been dead.

Now, I still would like to be Christian, but since then I’ve changed and found the idea of Hell as eternal conscious torture with no corrective purpose to be, frankly, sociopathic.

But not necessarily wrong. So to me, the gospel as stated by your typical conservative evangelical is a giant piece of bad news. The cosmos is a wreck, a failure. Jesus’ incarnation is the Father’s Plan B, but most will be burned and live as caged, screaming animals in an endless dog pound. Imagine if dogs that bit people weren’t put down, but were kept alive through unnatural means so the dog catcher could extract as much pain as possible.

The universe is a horror. I should have just laid down and died in my sleep at 25 while I could still handle the gospel.

Now there is no escape. Annihilation would be a blessing. Scientific materialism where we are just atoms tumbling through the void is the real Good News, because you die, are no more, and escape the trap of Being.

 

[Scribe]

I'm happy to discuss what the bible says . Tge

Now re read my Op . Thats my point . Living longer in the Lord is not best . Look at how safe it was for those fortunate enough to live only a day or perhaps a few hours .

Phil 1: 21For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. 23I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. 24But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account. 25Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all, for your progress and joy in the faith,

It is about our fruitful labor for others. What is best for them. That is the scriptural mindset we must have.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Doesn't that mean according to God's criteria He knows us?

Yes, scripture states that God foreknew us and predestined us. However, our being chosen by God is not based on our own efforts or works. God did not look into the future and chose us because of those things. Scripture states that it is by God's Sovereign will that are names are written in the the book of life and called. Who knows what God's criteria is for choosing one and not another for salvation.

 

[Ahwatukee]

This is no abstraction for me. I’m 50 years old, and at 25 was a very active traditional evangelical. Saved in the conservative Protestant sense.

One night back then, I came down with some serious respiratory problems. High fever, coughing up bloody foam, weakness, a bluish tint to my lips and nails. It was sepsis from an infected sore throat that crept down my windpipe.

I drove myself to the hospital and was put in an induced coma on a vent for two weeks and came very near death. Coded twice due to an antibiotic allergy, then got MRSA from an infected femoral line that required the most expensive antibiotic at the time. So, without the latest medical science of the time, I would have been dead.

Now, I still would like to be Christian, but since then I’ve changed and found the idea of Hell as eternal conscious torture with no corrective purpose to be, frankly, sociopathic.

But not necessarily wrong. So to me, the gospel as stated by your typical conservative evangelical is a giant piece of bad news. The cosmos is a wreck, a failure. Jesus’ incarnation is the Father’s Plan B, but most will be burned and live as caged, screaming animals in an endless dog pound. Imagine if dogs that bit people weren’t put down, but were kept alive through unnatural means so the dog catcher could extract as much pain as possible.

The universe is a horror. I should have just laid down and died in my sleep at 25 while I could still handle the gospel.

Now there is no escape. Annihilation would be a blessing. Scientific materialism where we are just atoms tumbling through the void is the real Good News, because you die, are no more, and escape the trap of Being.

Hello!

What do you mean that there is no escape? Have you turned away from faith? And if you are still having faith in Christ, you are still saved. Annihilation, i.e. ceasing to exist is no blessing. As the scripture says:

"And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ—if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him.

I consider that our present sufferings are not comparable to the glory that will be revealed in us.

 

[bojack]

This is no abstraction for me. I’m 50 years old, and at 25 was a very active traditional evangelical. Saved in the conservative Protestant sense.

One night back then, I came down with some serious respiratory problems. High fever, coughing up bloody foam, weakness, a bluish tint to my lips and nails. It was sepsis from an infected sore throat that crept down my windpipe.

I drove myself to the hospital and was put in an induced coma on a vent for two weeks and came very near death. Coded twice due to an antibiotic allergy, then got MRSA from an infected femoral line that required the most expensive antibiotic at the time. So, without the latest medical science of the time, I would have been dead.

Now, I still would like to be Christian, but since then I’ve changed and found the idea of Hell as eternal conscious torture with no corrective purpose to be, frankly, sociopathic.

But not necessarily wrong. So to me, the gospel as stated by your typical conservative evangelical is a giant piece of bad news. The cosmos is a wreck, a failure. Jesus’ incarnation is the Father’s Plan B, but most will be burned and live as caged, screaming animals in an endless dog pound. Imagine if dogs that bit people weren’t put down, but were kept alive through unnatural means so the dog catcher could extract as much pain as possible.

The universe is a horror. I should have just laid down and died in my sleep at 25 while I could still handle the gospel.

Now there is no escape. Annihilation would be a blessing. Scientific materialism where we are just atoms tumbling through the void is the real Good News, because you die, are no more, and escape the trap of Being.

This is no abstraction for me. I’m 50 years old, and at 25 was a very active traditional evangelical. Saved in the conservative Protestant sense.

One night back then, I came down with some serious respiratory problems. High fever, coughing up bloody foam, weakness, a bluish tint to my lips and nails. It was sepsis from an infected sore throat that crept down my windpipe.

I drove myself to the hospital and was put in an induced coma on a vent for two weeks and came very near death. Coded twice due to an antibiotic allergy, then got MRSA from an infected femoral line that required the most expensive antibiotic at the time. So, without the latest medical science of the time, I would have been dead.

Now, I still would like to be Christian, but since then I’ve changed and found the idea of Hell as eternal conscious torture with no corrective purpose to be, frankly, sociopathic.

But not necessarily wrong. So to me, the gospel as stated by your typical conservative evangelical is a giant piece of bad news. The cosmos is a wreck, a failure. Jesus’ incarnation is the Father’s Plan B, but most will be burned and live as caged, screaming animals in an endless dog pound. Imagine if dogs that bit people weren’t put down, but were kept alive through unnatural means so the dog catcher could extract as much pa-aidin as possible.

The universe is a horror. I should have just laid down and died in my sleep at 25 while I could still handle the gospel.
-aid
Now there is no escape. Annihilation would be a blessing. Scientific materialism where we are just atoms tumbling through the void is the real Good News, because you die, are no more, and escape the trap of Being.

Stop your demon induced self pitty and repent friend .. You sound like you've drank the devils kool-aid .. You don't know enough to not listen to your carnal mind ? You were not what you thought and were humbled .. NO MATTER WHAT YOUR MIND TELLS YOU ... There are people who are hundreds of times worse off than us and keep the faith in comfort ... You can recover with the Word , believe it , it may take a few months struggle, the devil will continue to tell you ''you despise the Word'', no you don't, your carnal mind is lying to you ... Tell your carnal mind from your heart you know better .. And send the devil on a hike every time he tells you different if it starts out being 1000 times a day in the beginning on the road back .. You will begin to retake ground you have wasted in Jesus name .. I know because I thought I was full for the whole thing ..done at one time .. Jesus eventually scrubbed me clean again .. Amen .. It was a very dark time but now I'm grateful for every minute of it all ...

 

[BolusOfDoom]

...the glory that will be revealed in us.

What about those not falling under “us”? The world is every man for himself, a sinking ship. The Titanic wasn’t a successful cruise because some passengers made it. Most ended up in the icy darkness of an abyssal plain.

When do the damned stop being my neighbor? Better to scrape sores with them in Hell than enjoy a Heaven shorn of all empathy.