Chosen by God - A study in Election

[throughfaith]

Answer me one question: Did the apostles choose Christ or did Christ choose them?

Jesus chose who would be his diciples . They chose to believe him .

 

[jackrosie]

Answer me one question: Did the apostles choose Christ or did Christ choose them?

That’s blatantly obvious.....Hahaha.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Well........I suppose we are waiting for YOUR harmonization of predestination and free will.

What's there to harmonize? Predestination is for the saints only. Believers saved by grace. Children of God. They are predestined for perfection and glorification (Rom 8:29,30). So all must choose to obey the Gospel or disobey the Gospel.

But they have not all obeyed the Gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? (Rom 10:16)

 

[lenna]

Well........I suppose we are waiting for YOUR harmonization of predestination and free will.

are you? sarcastic as usual. Calvinists just do not seem able to give a response that indicates any intent other than to insult

so it seems you admit the errors are there, the harmonization is not and you believe me capable of fixing this for you

too drole

 

[cv5]

I will answer your nonsense in full, but just to help you out...
whosoever is not in the text.
The text actually says everyone believing, and continuing to believe,lol
look it up big guy,l

Absolutely correct!
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/3-15.htm
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/3-16.htm

 

[lenna]

And you are confusing the election OF SPECIFIC INDIVIDUALS for ministry and service with the election of sinners for salvation. Huge difference.

appears to be the case

Calvinism seems to puff up the importance of the individual to the exclusion of grace. All that bragging about how they are specifically chosen just like the Apostles

 

[cv5]

What's there to harmonize? Predestination is for the saints only. Believers saved by grace. Children of God. They are predestined for perfection and glorification (Rom 8:29,30). So all must choose to obey the Gospel or disobey the Gospel.

But they have not all obeyed the Gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? (Rom 10:16)

OK. I completely agree thank you.
I suppose that the last question that needs to be reconciled is: does this "predestination" occurr before we are even born, before the foundation of the world, and by necessity according God's Sovereign choice?

 

[lenna]

oh well

just the same inane arguments with Calvinism in full display

actually being told that if you do not believe this fallacy, you are committing blasphemy...see post 61

I don't think I am wrong in stating that the Calvinist appears to believe it is Calvinism that actually saves. Why else would you call it blasphemy if you disagree with Calvinism?

please do not leave your salvation in the hands of people like that. the NT declares there is salvation through Jesus only and there is no name under heaven that anyone can be saved under but that name.

there is no blasphemy in believing that simple truth. as we live in an age in which so much deception is rampant and so many false doctrines about Christ are circulating, be assured that if you believe in Jesus, if you believe his blood was shed on your behalf for your sins and you have called upon Him for salvation and you know that He is real and the Holy Spirit indwells you and you now live a life in Him, be assured that you are saved and no one can remove you from the hand of God who will see you through this life and into eternal salvation and not damnation

Calvinism has never saved anyone. Only the blood of Christ shed for us grants salvation when we believe. John 3:16

 

[cv5]

And you are confusing the election OF SPECIFIC INDIVIDUALS for ministry and service with the election of sinners for salvation. Huge difference.

You could include Moses, Elijah, David, and Solomon, etc. (including all the apostles) in that pantheon. Throughout the history of Israel, God chose (elected) certain men for certain tasks. You see this in the book of Judges. Gideon did not believe that he should be a deliverer in Israel, but God chose him for that job. Christ chose Peter as the apostle to the Jews (even after he denied the Lord thrice) and then He chose Paul as the apostle to the Gentiles, even though he murdered Christians.

But none of this has a bearing on salvation. Since salvation is offered to all, God cannot possibly choose some for salvation. That is why He requires OBEDIENCE TO THE GOSPEL. So you need to learn about this matter.

All Christians are mandated for service and ministry, per the Great Commission. In fact we are the one and only true preachers of this present age. So by your standard of measure we also elect to service, foreordained before we were ever born. Which by the way I agree to.

 

[cv5]

oh well

just the same inane arguments with Calvinism in full display

actually being told that if you do not believe this fallacy, you are committing blasphemy...see post 61

I don't think I am wrong in stating that the Calvinist appears to believe it is Calvinism that actually saves. Why else would you call it blasphemy if you disagree with Calvinism?

please do not leave your salvation in the hands of people like that. the NT declares there is salvation through Jesus only and there is no name under heaven that anyone can be saved under but that name.

there is no blasphemy in believing that simple truth. as we live in an age in which so much deception is rampant and so many false doctrines about Christ are circulating, be assured that if you believe in Jesus, if you believe his blood was shed on your behalf for your sins and you have called upon Him for salvation and you know that He is real and the Holy Spirit indwells you and you now live a life in Him, be assured that you are saved and no one can remove you from the hand of God who will see you through this life and into eternal salvation and not damnation

Calvinism has never saved anyone. Only the blood of Christ shed for us grants salvation when we believe. John 3:16

1) I am not a Calvinist so-called.
2) The blasphemy I'm speaking of is the denial of the clear teaching of the plain text of Scripture pertaining to foreordination, God's choice, and predestination.

 

[throughfaith]

OK. I completely agree thank you.
I suppose that the last question that needs to be reconciled is: does this "predestination" occurr before we are even born, before the foundation of the world, and by necessity according God's Sovereign choice?

Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)

 

[cv5]

Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)

And that's where we differ. In my view Romans 8 is very clear that it is a total package:
[called-justified-sanctified-glorified]

As far as we're concerned this occurs at the moment we believe. As far as God is concerned all of this happened in eternity past........an effort by the way which God is fully capable of executing to perfection. From before the foundation of the world.

You postulate a division among the body of Christ that does not exist. Every single person who is converted will be glorified, inevitably.

 

[throughfaith]

And that's where we differ. In my view Romans 8 is very clear that it is a total package:
[called-justified-sanctified-glorified]

As far as we're concerned this occurs at the moment we believe. As far as God is concerned all of this happened in eternity past........an effort by the way which God is fully capable of executing to perfection. From before the foundation of the world.

You postulate a division among the body of Christ that does not exist. Every single person who is converted will be glorified, inevitably.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, WAITING for the ADOPTION, to wit, the redemption of our body.
We are predestined to the Adoption. Which as you can see from Rom 8.23 hasn't happened to you yet .
You don't have a verse that says you were predestined to be saved before you existed .
Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)

 

[cv5]

Jesus chose who would be his diciples . They chose to believe him .

Again I disagree. Allow me to demonstrate:

Matt 16:17
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven.

You erroneously postulate that the apostles "chose to believe Him". The Scripture is very clear that God the Father was the one doing the revealing! In fact this remarkable comment by Jesus seems to indicate that He is aware of that God has chosen Simon. There are numerous other Scriptures indicating that Jesus was well aware of that the Father DID NOT reveal to others the true identity and nature of Jesus! They were blind, walked in darkness, and tripped over the Stumbling-stone.

 

[throughfaith]

And that's where we differ. In my view Romans 8 is very clear that it is a total package:
[called-justified-sanctified-glorified]

As far as we're concerned this occurs at the moment we believe. As far as God is concerned all of this happened in eternity past........an effort by the way which God is fully capable of executing to perfection. From before the foundation of the world.

You postulate a division among the body of Christ that does not exist. Every single person who is converted will be glorified, inevitably.

Romans 8.29 again explains that of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30 . You are not conformed to his image at conversion but glorification. The Adoption . Till then we have the SPIRIT OF adoption as a guarantee of the future manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8.19 .For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.”
Your not going to hear that from a Calvinist, because of Augustine s philosophy which is all calvinism really is .

 

[cv5]

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, WAITING for the ADOPTION, to wit, the redemption of our body.
We are predestined to the Adoption. Which as you can see from Rom 8.23 hasn't happened to you yet .
Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)

"You don't have a verse that says you were predestined to be saved before you existed"

You must not be paying attention. In fact I posted dozens of such Scriptures.

 

[throughfaith]

Again I disagree. Allow me to demonstrate:

Matt 16:17
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven.

You erroneously postulate that the apostles "chose to believe Him". The Scripture is very clear that God the Father was the one doing the revealing! In fact this remarkable comment by Jesus seems to indicate that He is aware of that God has chosen Simon. There are numerous other Scriptures indicating that Jesus was well aware of that the Father DID NOT reveal to others the true identity and nature of Jesus! They were blind, walked in darkness, and tripped over the Stumbling-stone.

And are you implying that in there somewhere is the idea that people are chosen to be saved before they exist ? because that would be a stretch from those verses .

 

[cv5]

Romans 8.29 again explains that of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30 . You are not conformed to his image at conversion but glorification. The Adoption . Till then we have the SPIRIT OF adoption as a guarantee of the future manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8.19 .For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.”
Your not going to hear that from a Calvinist, because of Augustine s philosophy which is all calvinism really is .

Converted sinners ARE Saints. I don't see your point really.

 

[throughfaith]

"You don't have a verse that says you were predestined to be saved before you existed"

You must not be paying attention. In fact I posted dozens of such Scriptures.

No you just assumed those verses say what you believe. proof texting with no context.

 

[cv5]

And are you implying that in there somewhere is the idea that people are chosen to be saved before they exist ? because that would be a stretch from those verses .

There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that people are chosen to be saved before they exist. This is perfectly clear from both the Old Testament and New Testament.