Eternal Security - Most dangerous words ever preached: Once saved, always saved.
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To begin with, your answer to question number two is unbelievable. If God so loved the "fallen, sinful world" then He need not have devised a plan of redemption. In your answer you make God out to love sin.
The rest of your answers are so flippant, they do not deserve an answer. We are done here.
The rest of your answers are so flippant, they do not deserve an answer. We are done here.
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We are saved by giving our sins to Christ for His forgiveness, we have free choice to refuse to be saved by keeping our sins and not asking Christ for forgiveness. That is a truth and all our past is wiped out by it, including that time long ago when you were saved.
No scripture is against other scripture, it is all from the same God who does not change. He is alpha and omega. If you see something the Lord tells you that disagrees with another statement, like changing the Lords way of salvation, then it is your misunderstanding, not the Lord disagreeing with the Lord.
No scripture is against other scripture, it is all from the same God who does not change. He is alpha and omega. If you see something the Lord tells you that disagrees with another statement, like changing the Lords way of salvation, then it is your misunderstanding, not the Lord disagreeing with the Lord.
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To present the Gospel with works for salvation is blatent heresy. The Vatican (The Great Whore), and her harlots, such as the false prophet groups of the Seventh Day Adventists, Watchtower Society of Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Christodelphians, The Way International, and H.W. Armstrong Church of God, along with their antichrist offshoots would agree with that heresy, as it is the very same heresy that they all preach and teach. The Vatican's false Jesus is none other than the son of Lucifer; The Jehovah's Witnesses' false Jesus is none other than Abaddon a.k.a. Michael the Archangel; The S.D.A. false Jesus constistantly mutates between Michael the Archangel; and so forth. What else do they all have in common in addition to preaching "another Jesus" & "another gospel" per 2Corthinians 11? Read 2Timothy 3:2-9, 13 - They are false accusers; unholy; have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof. Those are Jesus rejecting; Gospel rejecting ministers of Satan! And they are the ones that propagate the "works salvation" as they bring their deceived adherants into their yoke of bondage.
P.S. If you read my previous posts within the context of this thread; You will quickly learn that I never confuse "good works" as part of Biblical salvation, as the scriptures cited are outstandingly written that refute such heresy.
P.S. If you read my previous posts within the context of this thread; You will quickly learn that I never confuse "good works" as part of Biblical salvation, as the scriptures cited are outstandingly written that refute such heresy.
Those Scriptures are all given to believers and all they say about believers is always true. But if a person is not "living and believing" in Christ then the promise does not apply. Now maybe there is a Scripture that says an unbeliever will never die? (I haven't found one yet?)
I guess I am just too simplistic and don't get how people make up their doctrinal statements . . . LOL! I just read Scripture and when I find a promise that applies to me as a believer, I receive it and rejoice in it!
I guess I am just too simplistic and don't get how people make up their doctrinal statements . . . LOL! I just read Scripture and when I find a promise that applies to me as a believer, I receive it and rejoice in it!
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Catholicism's error is more in clinging to penance for salvation, but the reformation churches make an equal error in throwing out works entirely. It makes difficult the verses where judgment is presented by deeds including the most straightforward picture of salvation from Matthew 25.
The complete picture of Biblical salvation is a faith that produces commensurate works. While the polemics of the 16th century may have made strong statements like Luther and the reformers did regarding works for salvation necessary it is only under a system where things like the sacrifice of the mass, penance, and the treasury of merit are present that it makes sense to speak in such black and white terms.
Throughout the Bible faith is presented as action rather than as passive belief. A gospel that presents a need to earn salvation is certainly false, but one that excludes works entirely is equally false.
The complete picture of Biblical salvation is a faith that produces commensurate works. While the polemics of the 16th century may have made strong statements like Luther and the reformers did regarding works for salvation necessary it is only under a system where things like the sacrifice of the mass, penance, and the treasury of merit are present that it makes sense to speak in such black and white terms.
Throughout the Bible faith is presented as action rather than as passive belief. A gospel that presents a need to earn salvation is certainly false, but one that excludes works entirely is equally false.
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It would seem to me that you should be able to defend your view of John 3:16.
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
While "world" should be read in context, there is nothing in the verse that would require one to read it as "World of the Elect" unless one has pre-suppositions that need to be fitted into the verse.
In context it means exactly that the "world"
The comparison is made to the Israelite being told to look at the bronze snake. (John 3: 15-16)
The invitation went to all and those that looked lived.
The "world" >>>> all sinners are given the invitation... by analogy.
As well we have "whosoever" meaning .......... "everyone who"
No limited atonement here.
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
While "world" should be read in context, there is nothing in the verse that would require one to read it as "World of the Elect" unless one has pre-suppositions that need to be fitted into the verse.
In context it means exactly that the "world"
The comparison is made to the Israelite being told to look at the bronze snake. (John 3: 15-16)
The invitation went to all and those that looked lived.
The "world" >>>> all sinners are given the invitation... by analogy.
As well we have "whosoever" meaning .......... "everyone who"
No limited atonement here.
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I have already cited entire passages in full context that refute "works salvation".
Now, for a moment, let's think about what the actual "works of the law" required. Go back to Exodus, then Leviticus, Deuteronomy, etc., to fully read what all was entailed. I find it absolutely stunning that so many various groups, such as the ones that I listed in my previous post to you, all preach and teach a works salvation. But what are the works? Do they perform animal sacrifices on an altar? Of course not! They each blab a necessity of doing works for salvation, but each group defines its own list and set of rules of what they define those works to be. The JWs must follow after the Watchtower as being their false god's only channel of communication a.k.a. "god's visible organization"; go to 5 meetings a week; study the watchtower at home; go door knocking; recruit other people; and so much more, and the Mormons are the same, except theirs is slightly redefined to fit their atmospheric setting; They must wear white and black clothing; Go Bike riding to peddle the Book of Mormon; recruit other people; Catholics must read their Catechism; pray the rosary; go to mass; eat the eucharist; preach Roman Catholicism; along with a boat load of various ritual routines, including making the sign of the cross each time they pass a Catholic Church, when they walk past the R.C.C. altar, and the examples are nearly endless. The point is that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works, lest any man should boast, as it is according to the scriptures. What are your "good works" that you must perform to earn your salvation? Are you a recruiter of other people? Do you peddle some man or organization's literature? Do you perform animal sacrifices? I'm really curious how and why it is that you absolutely disagree with what Apostle Paul preached and taught? Please share! How do you and or your Church or Organization define "good works" that are necessary for salvation?
Now, for a moment, let's think about what the actual "works of the law" required. Go back to Exodus, then Leviticus, Deuteronomy, etc., to fully read what all was entailed. I find it absolutely stunning that so many various groups, such as the ones that I listed in my previous post to you, all preach and teach a works salvation. But what are the works? Do they perform animal sacrifices on an altar? Of course not! They each blab a necessity of doing works for salvation, but each group defines its own list and set of rules of what they define those works to be. The JWs must follow after the Watchtower as being their false god's only channel of communication a.k.a. "god's visible organization"; go to 5 meetings a week; study the watchtower at home; go door knocking; recruit other people; and so much more, and the Mormons are the same, except theirs is slightly redefined to fit their atmospheric setting; They must wear white and black clothing; Go Bike riding to peddle the Book of Mormon; recruit other people; Catholics must read their Catechism; pray the rosary; go to mass; eat the eucharist; preach Roman Catholicism; along with a boat load of various ritual routines, including making the sign of the cross each time they pass a Catholic Church, when they walk past the R.C.C. altar, and the examples are nearly endless. The point is that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works, lest any man should boast, as it is according to the scriptures. What are your "good works" that you must perform to earn your salvation? Are you a recruiter of other people? Do you peddle some man or organization's literature? Do you perform animal sacrifices? I'm really curious how and why it is that you absolutely disagree with what Apostle Paul preached and taught? Please share! How do you and or your Church or Organization define "good works" that are necessary for salvation?
I'm starting to suspect you're not actually reading what I am saying and instead railing against systems that have no bearing on the conversation.
I don't disagree with Paul, but I recognize as Peter does that many twist what he says to their own destruction. Paul speaks of faith, a real faith, not what faith has come to mean in many circles.
You cite many verses that paint a certain picture, and I cite verses to show that that picture is not the complete picture. If you preach a gospel that is so opposed to works that it cannot accomodate James, Jude, Peter, and John then your gospel is half a gospel. If those books in their simplicity become difficult needing to be massaged over to sound more like Paul, you preach a half gospel.
Works cannot earn anyone salvation but if there are no works then there is no true faith. Just a lifeless belief.
I don't disagree with Paul, but I recognize as Peter does that many twist what he says to their own destruction. Paul speaks of faith, a real faith, not what faith has come to mean in many circles.
You cite many verses that paint a certain picture, and I cite verses to show that that picture is not the complete picture. If you preach a gospel that is so opposed to works that it cannot accomodate James, Jude, Peter, and John then your gospel is half a gospel. If those books in their simplicity become difficult needing to be massaged over to sound more like Paul, you preach a half gospel.
Works cannot earn anyone salvation but if there are no works then there is no true faith. Just a lifeless belief.
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Hello Rosemaryx,
What a great thing to be pondering indeed. To answer this completely and in a way that honors God, would take up a good part of Holy Scripture. It is also the truth that the world hates the most. Why? Because, to understand it means, that the person is willing to come to grips with the fact that everything God is doing, is for HIS glory and NOT for ours. His people are the partakers of His eternal plan but not the sole focus of His plan. The focus of His plan is His Son. Why? Because He loved His Son above all else. His eternal plan, given in part, in His revealed Word, is the expression of His love for His Son. That plan included giving all things unto Him.
(Rom 11:36) For of him, and through him, and unto him, are all things. To him be the glory for ever. Amen.
Included in this plan, is the redemption of fallen man. For the express purpose of giving Him (Christ), an eternal gift of loving worshipers. The one thing we know, by studying the Scriptures, this was never fully obtained because of the hardness of man's heart. Therefore, the Father Chose some from before the foundation of the world.
(Eph 1:4) even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:
These individuals, who are only known by the Father and the Son, until it becomes manifest by the witness and life of the believer, for others to see. For proof of this choosing out, let's look at the following verses:
(John 6:44) No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.
(the better translation here would be, "no man is able to come to me"). Not that a person can't come to Christ but that a man is not able of his own self to come. This harmonizes with Rom. 1:21-23; 3:10-12. The main point to remember is "There is NONE that seeks after God.". Not that man does not seek after a god, but not the God of Scripture, as portrayed in the Scriptures. Just as he often wants to create a savior that is not the Savior as portrayed in Scriptures. Also, in this verse, note where our Lord said, "....the Father who sent me DRAW him..." (In the greek text, the word translated "draw" is "elkusn". This word carries the meaning of: To lay hold of, to pull or drag.) This is where the New Birth comes in. It is the Holy Spirit that leads us into repentance and the Truth of Jesus Christ.
Let's look a little further at God's choosing of some for His Son. Note what our Lord said to the religionist of his day, which still applies today.
(John 6:36,37) But I said unto you, that ye have seen me, and yet believe not. All that which the Father giveth me shall come unto me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
(John 6:65) And he said, For this cause have I said unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father.
Now again, our Lord makes it clear, that He has a particular group in mind, He knows them, they know Him and most importantly, He is dying for them and not for the whole world. This is only one area of Scripture that states this great and hated truth by those of the world that can't hear His voice.
(John 10:26-28) But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
Many people want to shove these great truths back into darkness, by saying, well the audience was Jewish and therefore the Sheep were Jewish and this has nothing to do with us gentiles. DON'T be fooled by this. Our Lord said He laid down His life for the Sheep. By their reckoning, putting this all on Jewish ground to be ignored, then non of the Gentiles were included in Christ's death and this would be foolishness.
Now as to the often quoted and abused John 3:16, The use of "world" here is limited in it's scope but I am not going into that now; rather I would like to point out the "whosoevers" of this verse. Based on what I have been writing to you, who do you think the whosoevers are? This verse by the way is not a promise for the future. While it does hold true that those who are believing shall have eternal life. The verb tense, in the greek text, for the word translated "believes" is not in the Future Tense. It is a Present Active Indicative Verb, so our Lord was stating a fact, not a promise. He was saying then, "whoever is believing (right now as he was talking), shall (future), have everlasting life.
So that brings us back to Christ's high priestly prayer of John 17. Jesus did not pray for the "world" because He had nothing to say, to His Father, in regards to the world system or those that were not His own. Plain and simple fact which the world hates. Only the Sheep readily accept this Truth and do not kick against it because we, the sheep, know it is not about us, it is about our Great and Glorious Savior, Jesus Christ our Lord. For we know that God does as he pleases and thank God for that.
What a great thing to be pondering indeed. To answer this completely and in a way that honors God, would take up a good part of Holy Scripture. It is also the truth that the world hates the most. Why? Because, to understand it means, that the person is willing to come to grips with the fact that everything God is doing, is for HIS glory and NOT for ours. His people are the partakers of His eternal plan but not the sole focus of His plan. The focus of His plan is His Son. Why? Because He loved His Son above all else. His eternal plan, given in part, in His revealed Word, is the expression of His love for His Son. That plan included giving all things unto Him.
(Rom 11:36) For of him, and through him, and unto him, are all things. To him be the glory for ever. Amen.
Included in this plan, is the redemption of fallen man. For the express purpose of giving Him (Christ), an eternal gift of loving worshipers. The one thing we know, by studying the Scriptures, this was never fully obtained because of the hardness of man's heart. Therefore, the Father Chose some from before the foundation of the world.
(Eph 1:4) even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:
These individuals, who are only known by the Father and the Son, until it becomes manifest by the witness and life of the believer, for others to see. For proof of this choosing out, let's look at the following verses:
(John 6:44) No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.
(the better translation here would be, "no man is able to come to me"). Not that a person can't come to Christ but that a man is not able of his own self to come. This harmonizes with Rom. 1:21-23; 3:10-12. The main point to remember is "There is NONE that seeks after God.". Not that man does not seek after a god, but not the God of Scripture, as portrayed in the Scriptures. Just as he often wants to create a savior that is not the Savior as portrayed in Scriptures. Also, in this verse, note where our Lord said, "....the Father who sent me DRAW him..." (In the greek text, the word translated "draw" is "elkusn". This word carries the meaning of: To lay hold of, to pull or drag.) This is where the New Birth comes in. It is the Holy Spirit that leads us into repentance and the Truth of Jesus Christ.
Let's look a little further at God's choosing of some for His Son. Note what our Lord said to the religionist of his day, which still applies today.
(John 6:36,37) But I said unto you, that ye have seen me, and yet believe not. All that which the Father giveth me shall come unto me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
(John 6:65) And he said, For this cause have I said unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father.
Now again, our Lord makes it clear, that He has a particular group in mind, He knows them, they know Him and most importantly, He is dying for them and not for the whole world. This is only one area of Scripture that states this great and hated truth by those of the world that can't hear His voice.
(John 10:26-28) But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
Many people want to shove these great truths back into darkness, by saying, well the audience was Jewish and therefore the Sheep were Jewish and this has nothing to do with us gentiles. DON'T be fooled by this. Our Lord said He laid down His life for the Sheep. By their reckoning, putting this all on Jewish ground to be ignored, then non of the Gentiles were included in Christ's death and this would be foolishness.
Now as to the often quoted and abused John 3:16, The use of "world" here is limited in it's scope but I am not going into that now; rather I would like to point out the "whosoevers" of this verse. Based on what I have been writing to you, who do you think the whosoevers are? This verse by the way is not a promise for the future. While it does hold true that those who are believing shall have eternal life. The verb tense, in the greek text, for the word translated "believes" is not in the Future Tense. It is a Present Active Indicative Verb, so our Lord was stating a fact, not a promise. He was saying then, "whoever is believing (right now as he was talking), shall (future), have everlasting life.
So that brings us back to Christ's high priestly prayer of John 17. Jesus did not pray for the "world" because He had nothing to say, to His Father, in regards to the world system or those that were not His own. Plain and simple fact which the world hates. Only the Sheep readily accept this Truth and do not kick against it because we, the sheep, know it is not about us, it is about our Great and Glorious Savior, Jesus Christ our Lord. For we know that God does as he pleases and thank God for that.
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