Calvinist Kitchen...stirring the pot

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eternally-gratefull

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#3,081
#3,081
Grandpa said:
You aren't reading it properly.

You don't want to or you can't. Not sure what is going on here.

Romans 9:15-16
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


It would be not of THEM that willeth or THEM that runneth were an entire NATION being talked about here.

Romans 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?


Nay but "O Nation...."

This whole part is talking about individuals. IT IS ALSO talking about the nation of Israel. But that doesn't subtract from the fact that it is about INDIVIDUALS too.
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,Jesus quoted the OT, he quoted where Jesus spoke of the potter and the clay, the clay was isreal

jesus did not take an OT passage out of context and make it mean something Other than what it origional meant. That would be a crime, and misinterpreting the origional author

romans 9 is arguing again all of Israel’s argument ts against Christ, and showing the gentile church of rome that God did not make a mistake choosing Israel to begin with,

he was not speaking to an induvidual

Have you even read the passage to which paul quoted? How can you have an understanding without going OT the source to see context of how it was used?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#3,082
#3,082
Grandpa said:
That's the whole point here.

No one just decides to start not trusting in themselves without first being regenerated.

Salvation = Gift of God

Belief = Salvation

Therefore, Belief = Gift of God


Everything necessary for Salvation is the Gift of God. I know this to be true. I'm not just guessing.
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I can not agree bro, that is where me and calvin come to a wall.

one can not be regenerated in a state of sin, sin must be removed (the penalty) before regeneration can not place

the penalty of sin is death

life can not occure until the penalty is removed.

by defenition that is justification

we are justified by faith

so there is one way it happens

1. be shown your sin and drawn to god. And shown his plan of salvation (be drawn by God)

2. repent

3.have faith and in faith call out to gods mercy

4. because of your justification, the penalty of death is removed

5. since the one thing that kept you dead is gone, you are now made alive in Christ,
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#3,083
#3,083
Grandpa said:
That's the whole point here.

No one just decides to start not trusting in themselves without first being regenerated.

Salvation = Gift of God

Belief = Salvation

Therefore, Belief = Gift of God


Everything necessary for Salvation is the Gift of God. I know this to be true. I'm not just guessing.
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Let’s rephrase this to make it the way I see it

1. salvation is a gift of god

2. we are saved by grace THROUGH faith

3. faith is a gift of god, but like any gift, it can be rejected
 
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Grandpa

Senior Member
#3,084
Jun 24, 2011
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#3,084
EleventhHour said:
"make Him save you"

WOW!

Who is this god you preach.... some unresponsive god of Greek philosophy?

God DESIRES to save .. this is why He sent His Son.
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You can make God act by your will and your choice(s).

Who is really God in your philosophy? The One who makes the other Act is God, wouldn't that be correct?

If God caused you to come to Christ and be Saved then He would be God.

If you decided, through your own will and brilliance, to come to Christ and "let" God save you then you are your own God in this situation. You have learned how to make God do your will. Instead of God teaching you to do His Will.

Who is the servant of whom? Who is the slave of whom?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#3,085
#3,085
Grandpa said:
That's the whole point here.

No one just decides to start not trusting in themselves without first being regenerated.

Salvation = Gift of God

Belief = Salvation

Therefore, Belief = Gift of God


Everything necessary for Salvation is the Gift of God. I know this to be true. I'm not just guessing.
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Ps. I agree, everything necessary for salvation is a gift. I know this to be true also. I am. Ot guessing either,,
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
#3,086
#3,086
Grandpa said:
That's the whole point here.

No one just decides to start not trusting in themselves without first being regenerated.

Salvation = Gift of God

Belief = Salvation

Therefore, Belief = Gift of God


Everything necessary for Salvation is the Gift of God. I know this to be true. I'm not just guessing.
Click to expand...

ALL other parts of TULIP are constructed ....... to PROTECT this false erroneous doctrine of "irresistible grace"
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#3,087
#3,087
Grandpa said:
You can make God act by your will and your choice(s).

Who is really God in your philosophy? The One who makes the other Act is God, wouldn't that be correct?

If God caused you to come to Christ and be Saved then He would be God.

If you decided, through your own will and brilliance, to come to Christ and "let" God save you then you are your own God in this situation. You have learned how to make God do your will. Instead of God teaching you to do His Will.

Who is the servant of whom? Who is the slave of whom?
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Your right, I can not make god act by my will

but if it is gods will that I must see and believe, then it is god acting under his own soverignty to save me because of my belief
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#3,088
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
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#3,088
eternally-gratefull said:
I can not agree bro, that is where me and calvin come to a wall.

one can not be regenerated in a state of sin, sin must be removed (the penalty) before regeneration can not place

the penalty of sin is death

life can not occure until the penalty is removed.

by defenition that is justification

we are justified by faith

so there is one way it happens

1. be shown your sin and drawn to god. And shown his plan of salvation (be drawn by God)

2. repent

3.have faith and in faith call out to gods mercy

4. because of your justification, the penalty of death is removed

5. since the one thing that kept you dead is gone, you are now made alive in Christ,
Click to expand...
You have no ability to do the things REQUIRED for Salvation.

You must call on Christ for His Help.

In order to even see and understand this you must be regenerated.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#3,089
Jan 13, 2016
17,186
3,703
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#3,089
Grandpa said:
You can make God act by your will and your choice(s).

Who is really God in your philosophy? The One who makes the other Act is God, wouldn't that be correct?

If God caused you to come to Christ and be Saved then He would be God.

If you decided, through your own will and brilliance, to come to Christ and "let" God save you then you are your own God in this situation. You have learned how to make God do your will. Instead of God teaching you to do His Will.

Who is the servant of whom? Who is the slave of whom?
Click to expand...
This seems to be the best logic coming from the calvinist camp.

“If God caused you to come to Christ and be Saved then He would be God.“. This takes away all accountability. How can man be held accountable if God is doing all the choosing?

Why is my name not written in the book of life? Simple Lord, you didn’t choose me.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
#3,090
#3,090
Grandpa said:
You can make God act by your will and your choice(s).

Who is really God in your philosophy? The One who makes the other Act is God, wouldn't that be correct?

If God caused you to come to Christ and be Saved then He would be God.

If you decided, through your own will and brilliance, to come to Christ and "let" God save you then you are your own God in this situation. You have learned how to make God do your will. Instead of God teaching you to do His Will.

Who is the servant of whom? Who is the slave of whom?
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I know your tactics ... Calvinists are trained to use the same argument.

"Irresistible grace".... not found in scripture.

In fact the exact opposite.

"Whosoever believes shall be saved" Jn 3:16

It is not whosoever God makes a believer.

You make John the Baptist, Jesus and the apostles liars.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#3,091
#3,091
Grandpa said:
You have no ability to do the things REQUIRED for Salvation.

You must call on Christ for His Help.

In order to even see and understand this you must be regenerated.
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Then I am regenerated while still in sin, and in reality justification. Is no longer required, as I am already made alive and restore to god.
sorry bro. This wall is where I can not cross
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#3,092
#3,092
John146 said:
This seems to be the best logic coming from the calvinist camp.

“If God caused you to come to Christ and be Saved then He would be God.“. This takes away all accountability. How can man be held accountable if God is doing all the choosing?

Why is my name not written in the book of life? Simple Lord, you didn’t choose me.
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This is what I think it comes from, someone was afraid he may try to save himself so he came up with this view.
oh how fear can taint us

however I do not think all calvinist are afraid so would not use this against them in any way I would be assuming
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
#3,093
#3,093
Grandpa said:
You can make God act by your will and your choice(s).

Who is really God in your philosophy? The One who makes the other Act is God, wouldn't that be correct?

If God caused you to come to Christ and be Saved then He would be God.

If you decided, through your own will and brilliance, to come to Christ and "let" God save you then you are your own God in this situation. You have learned how to make God do your will. Instead of God teaching you to do His Will.

Who is the servant of whom? Who is the slave of whom?
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"Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Re 22:17"And whosoever will not receive you, when you go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them." Lk 9:5

Testimony against God you mean then????^^^^^^^

"Come to me you who are heavy laden and I will give you rest" Mt 11:28
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
#3,094
#3,094
Grandpa said:
You have no ability to do the things REQUIRED for Salvation.

You must call on Christ for His Help.

In order to even see and understand this you must be regenerated.
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Not one of those in the Calvinist camp been able to scripturally support the dogma of irresistible grace.

Beware of this false teaching.... it sets the stage for everything else that is wrong and against Christ in Calvinism.
 
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Grandpa

Senior Member
#3,095
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
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#3,095
eternally-gratefull said:
that’s great

but the true view is God. Exposes everyone’s sin, yet not everyone comes to saving faith

romans 1 proves this. The people have no excuse because they know

also John 3. Where it said people know. yet chose their sin,
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I hate trampling on peoples beliefs in Christ.

Especially when I am fairly certain they are Children of God.

Its like telling a kid there is no santa claus.


God brought you to Salvation because it was HIS WILL that you be Saved. He allowed you to continue to believe it was your "free-will" that caused your Salvation. There is no harm in it. You just haven't studied Salvation all the way out yet. You know it is the Gift of God. You just don't know the extent of it. You are still giving yourself credit for some of the requirements necessary to gain His Gift.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
#3,096
#3,096
"Irresistible grace"

A doctrine that is the perfect set up for arrogance and pride.

The love of God does not compel ("It does not insist on its own way") 1 Corinthians 13
That God saves us is his ultimate expression of love.
This expression of love cannot be based on irresistible grace.
Irresistible grace is not how God saves us.

PERIOD!!!
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#3,097
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
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113
#3,097
EleventhHour said:
"Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Re 22:17"And whosoever will not receive you, when you go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them." Lk 9:5

Testimony against God you mean then????^^^^^^^

"Come to me you who are heavy laden and I will give you rest" Mt 11:28
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No man CAN come to me unless he is drawn by the Father.

What did the Lord mean by this?
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#3,098
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#3,098
John146 said:
This seems to be the best logic coming from the calvinist camp.

“If God caused you to come to Christ and be Saved then He would be God.“. This takes away all accountability. How can man be held accountable if God is doing all the choosing?

Why is my name not written in the book of life? Simple Lord, you didn’t choose me.
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Except for the small caveat that only those who are Saved know the method of their Salvation.

Its called Working out your Salvation with fear and trembling. It is a pretty awesome thing. It is the cause of being (eternally) grateful to God....:D
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#3,099
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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#3,099
Grandpa said:
No man CAN come to me unless he is drawn by the Father. What did the Lord mean by this?
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This saying cannot be taken in isolation. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit -- God Himself -- draws sinners to the Savior through the Gospel.

That is why the preaching of the Gospel in all the world and to every creature is a commandment of Christ. And Paul says that the Gospel is the POWER OF GOD unto salvation (Rom 1:16) and that faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God (the Gospel) (Rom 10:17)

Whenever the true Gospel is preached God Himself is present with the Gospel, and it is God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who draws all men to Christ.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#3,100
#3,100
Grandpa said:
I hate trampling on peoples beliefs in Christ.

Especially when I am fairly certain they are Children of God.

Its like telling a kid there is no santa claus.


God brought you to Salvation because it was HIS WILL that you be Saved. He allowed you to continue to believe it was your "free-will" that caused your Salvation. There is no harm in it. You just haven't studied Salvation all the way out yet. You know it is the Gift of God. You just don't know the extent of it. You are still giving yourself credit for some of the requirements necessary to gain His Gift.
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I feel the same way about trampling others beliefs and know you are my brother so will
Not judge you as others have

God loved saving me. And he lived even more I chose to be saved vs continue to live in my sin

It was his will. And we are close because if it. Because he know apart from him. I deserve hell

As I say everyday I wake up
And am not In Hell (where I deserve) It is a good day
 
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