Calvinist Kitchen...stirring the pot

[garee]

Sorry, but could you explain your response to my post a little better. Does God love the wicked, or does he not?

He hates all workers of iniquity but blesses those who follow his truth.

 

[ScottyPchristian]

I find that hard to believe that most Christians don't want to hear the gospel or about Jesus...just saying.

As for the "going door knocking part", are you a Jehovah's Witness? Just wondering?

We found most professing Christians don't want to hear the gospel, the typical response in "I'm a Catholic, I already believe and I'd rather not discuss religion right now".
We have bumped into the JW's on several occasions whilst door knocking, it's makes it difficult when we visit people after the JW's have already been there just before us.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Sorry, I don't see that at all. God has made it clear in way too many verses of scripture. You would have to deal with all those scriptures to try and limit atonement, in which you nor anyone else can do. To God be all the glory and power. It is God's plan and he has made it perfectly clear...no need for anyone to try to limit it because they cannot limit God... He is in control. I seriously wonder why any would even want to limit the atonement?

Anyhow, here is a few more of the scriptures that you can try to deal with and harmonize with:

1 Timothy 2
3This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,…

Ezekiel 18:23
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Lord GOD. would I not prefer he turn from his ways and live?

Ezekiel 18:32
For I take no pleasure in anyone's death, declares the Lord GOD. So repent and live!

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them: 'As surely as I live, declares the Lord GOD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked should turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

John 3:17
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.

And many, many, many more just like this. God has said whomsoever will, all, any, all men, the whole world....there is no twisting this around and it cannot be limited by any man. And once again, it really concerns me that some people would even want to limit Jesus. He died for the whole world so that any and all that will believe in him should be saved. Why do some want to limit God and reply back against him and his perfect plan of salvation? He is righteous and good, a holy and just God, who opened the way of salvation for all through his Son Jesus Christ, and now the free gift is upon all that will accept him!

If you do not reference a Greek concordance, it will be useless to carry on a profitable conversation with you.

 

[EleventhHour]

Sorry, I don't see that at all. God has made it clear in way too many verses of scripture. You would have to deal with all those scriptures to try and limit atonement, in which you nor anyone else can do. To God be all the glory and power. It is God's plan and he has made it perfectly clear...no need for anyone to try to limit it because they cannot limit God... He is in control. I seriously wonder why any would even want to limit the atonement?

Anyhow, here is a few more of the scriptures that you can try to deal with and harmonize with:

1 Timothy 2
3This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,…

Ezekiel 18:23
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Lord GOD. would I not prefer he turn from his ways and live?

Ezekiel 18:32
For I take no pleasure in anyone's death, declares the Lord GOD. So repent and live!

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them: 'As surely as I live, declares the Lord GOD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked should turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

John 3:17
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.

And many, many, many more just like this. God has said whomsoever will, all, any, all men, the whole world....there is no twisting this around and it cannot be limited by any man. And once again, it really concerns me that some people would even want to limit Jesus. He died for the whole world so that any and all that will believe in him should be saved. Why do some want to limit God and reply back against him and his perfect plan of salvation? He is righteous and good, a holy and just God, who opened the way of salvation for all through his Son Jesus Christ, and now the free gift is upon all that will accept him!

The sad truth is you can post scripture after scripture .. what seems to clear to us they cannot see.

In Calvinism, ultimately scripture loses its authority... they do not believe God means what He says......

....Scripture and what God says submits to TULIP.

They would need to turn it around and see if TULIP fits scripture .. what are the chances

of that happening?????

 

[Blue_Of_Lake]

First of all; I firmly believe that no one can understand the scriptures and their true meaning, without denying their own entelect, and letting the Holy Spirit within them reveal the truths of the scriptures. Secondly, we have to study, making use of a Greek concordance.

If a person, seemingly, has scriptures that contradict each other, they do not have the truth.

2 Pet 3:9; The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to US-WARD, not willing that any should PERISH, but that ALL should come to repentance.

In keeping this verse in context, we have to go back to chapter 1, verse 1, which says that Peter is talking to "them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ".

Peter even includes himself, in his warning to them, by using the word "us-ward".

Peter is warning them, and himself also, that when they commit a sin, they should repent of that sin, to avoid "pershing" Perish according to Greek, means to lose, or die. Death, according to Greek means "a separation".

After we have been born again, and we commit a sin, we separate ourselves from our fellowship with God, until we repent of that sin, for God will not fellowship with sin.

The "any" in this verse has reference to them that have obtained like precious faith.

I resent your comment that I do not harmonize the scriptures with honesty, and integrity. I could say that about you, but I won't, because it is not productive, and besides that, it is very rude.

indeed. we run the risk of reading any Scripture 'our Way' unless we ask God the True Meaning/s.

but why would the Spirit need a Concordance??

 

[dcontroversal]

The sad truth is you can post scripture after scripture .. what seems to clear to us they cannot see.

In Calvinism, ultimately scripture loses its authority... they do not believe God means what He says......

....Scripture and what God says submits to TULIP.

They would need to turn it around and see if TULIP fits scripture .. what are the chances

of that happening?????

None......!

 

[Nehemiah6]

In Calvinism, ultimately scripture loses its authority... they do not believe God means what He says......

This is the real DANGER of deliberately misrepresenting the Word of God. Because the Pharisees were wilfully blind, God ultimately blinded them, and Christ withheld God's truth from them. But the same principle applies today.

For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath. (Mk 4:25)

 

[1ofthem]

I really do hate getting into these type of conversations with Calvinists. It is usually fruitless. The only reason that I do it though, is for the simple fact that Calvinism, Reformed theology...is false, misleading, harmful, and dangerous.

God made the plan for salvation and put forth a simple message....He sent his only begotten Son so that whosoever will believe in him will not perish, but have eternal life. This is the message of the gospel. Jesus says if I be lifted up I will draw all men to myself. Whosoever will let him come and drink of the water of life freely. He sent out the invitation to all. That if thou shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.

Why do some want to limit this? Calvinism could cast a stumbling block and doubt on to others who the Lord may be drawing. I cannot understand why anyone would want to do such a thing.

 

[Duskey]

Calvinism could cast a stumbling block and doubt on to others who the Lord may be drawing. I cannot understand why anyone would want to do such a thing.

I noticed the calvinist ring leader doesn’t have the minerals to respond to post #2745. These dogmatic cultists are going to weep bitterly beyond comprehension for being stumbling blocks to so many people, and I will not weep for them.

 

[lenna]

minerals? it's ok. the trip to Mars will supply them

 

[EleventhHour]

I really do hate getting into these type of conversations with Calvinists. It is usually fruitless. The only reason that I do it though, is for the simple fact that Calvinism, Reformed theology...is false, misleading, harmful, and dangerous.

God made the plan for salvation and put forth a simple message....He sent his only begotten Son so that whosoever will believe in him will not perish, but have eternal life. This is the message of the gospel. Jesus says if I be lifted up I will draw all men to myself. Whosoever will let him come and drink of the water of life freely. He sent out the invitation to all. That if thou shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.

Why do some want to limit this? Calvinism could cast a stumbling block and doubt on to others who the Lord may be drawing. I cannot understand why anyone would want to do such a thing.

Why do some want to limit this?

They limit this, very simply because they have the WRONG understanding of who God is........ like all cults.

 

[Grandpa]

I really do hate getting into these type of conversations with Calvinists. It is usually fruitless. The only reason that I do it though, is for the simple fact that Calvinism, Reformed theology...is false, misleading, harmful, and dangerous.

God made the plan for salvation and put forth a simple message....He sent his only begotten Son so that whosoever will believe in him will not perish, but have eternal life. This is the message of the gospel. Jesus says if I be lifted up I will draw all men to myself. Whosoever will let him come and drink of the water of life freely. He sent out the invitation to all. That if thou shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.

Why do some want to limit this? Calvinism could cast a stumbling block and doubt on to others who the Lord may be drawing. I cannot understand why anyone would want to do such a thing.

Calvinism doesn't cast a stumbling block or doubt on to others who the Lord is drawing. Quite the opposite.

It is freewillers who cast a stumbling block and doubt on others who the Lord may be drawing.

In Calvinism, there is nothing more concrete than the Lord drawing His People to Him.


The freewillers say that their own will can overcome Gods Will at any moment. This is the epitome of placing a stumbling block and doubt on to others who the Lord may be drawing.

 

[EleventhHour]

I noticed the calvinist ring leader doesn’t have the minerals to respond to post #2745

Hard to have minerals maybe when you have no free will.

 

[ScottyPchristian]

I do not believe the scriptures requires us to do anything to get a ticket to heaven. The scriptures do tell us that if we follow the instructions God has given us on how to live our lives here in this world, we can enjoy a peaceful, and satisfying life as we live here.

Getting to heaven is by God's grace, which is a free gift that does not require any action from us.

So if I understand you correctly, you're saying we don't contribute anything towards the work of salvation. That sounds Biblically correct and I've never found anything in the scriptures that would disagree with this.
My understanding is that God grants us everything we need to receive salvation, including obedience to the gospel. So we obey and do good works as a result of being regenerated and saved form our sin and not to attain salvation.

The two main ways Christians interpret the doctrine of salvation, is works based and grace based. The works based view teaches that we earn salvation by obedience and good works and the grace based view teaches that our obedience and works have nothing to do with salvation.

We find many with extreme views on both sides, and that doesn't help anyone understand what the Bible is actually teaching us. I'm sure your not one of those who thinks he can go through life with a relaxed attitude towards sin, because you know that nothing can cause you to lose your salvation. Many of us who believe in election are often accused of living as if we have a licence to sin.

Many who believe in election accuse those who believe in the joint effort type of salvation, of heresy. I would never conclude that ones view of this doctrine would make them a heretic or as unsaved. Only God knows who's names are written in His book of life, so we should treat everyone as potentially saved.

I haven't spoken to my pastor in a few months since this epidemic, but I look forward to asking him if a persons view of this particular Bible doctrine should cause us to break fellowship with those from the other camp.

 

[EleventhHour]

In Calvinism, there is nothing more concrete than the Lord drawing His People to Him.

37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
Matthew 23:37

40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
John 5:40

So God failed here?

Calvinism has the wrong view of God.

 

[ScottyPchristian]

Thanks for sharing. That’s where we are today. Forty years ago, people would invite you in their homes and hear you out. Today, you're lucky to get thirty seconds before they shut the door. Does that mean we give up? Not at all. The one person out of a hundred is worth it. Plant the seed. Preach the gospel in season and out.

I recently heard a sermon where the preacher quoted a sobering statistic, which found that the average secular unbeliever from 50 years ago had higher moral standards than a regular Church goer today.
He sighted a long list of moral standards which the average unbeliever on the street believed in and held to. The main things were the views on abortion, adultery, homosexuality, crime and punishment, drug and alcohol abuse, divorce, fornication etc.

The comparison found that today's Christians are willing to accept many of those things in the Church, where as the average unbeliever would even vote for anyone who agreed with those things.
The Bible does warn us that the world world become like Sodom and Glamour, before the return of Christ. Those cities weren't just guilty of sexual immorality, they were lawless in every way and our world seems to be waxing worse with every passing year.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Calvinism doesn't cast a stumbling block or doubt on to others who the Lord is drawing. Quite the opposite.

It is freewillers who cast a stumbling block and doubt on others who the Lord may be drawing.

In Calvinism, there is nothing more concrete than the Lord drawing His People to Him.


The freewillers say that their own will can overcome Gods Will at any moment. This is the epitome of placing a stumbling block and doubt on to others who the Lord may be drawing.

This is the issue I have with your thinking bro

how can I over rule Gods will?
I can reject it, but I can not over rule it, I do not know really where this thinking comes from

if it is gods will that al who see and believe are saved, then those who see and do not believe do not overrule gods will, they just did not believe in gods will, and in turn will suffer the consequences.
many are called but few are chosen because like in John 6. Jesus called many disciples, but many did not believe, so only a few were chosen.

 

[John146]

I recently heard a sermon where the preacher quoted a sobering statistic, which found that the average secular unbeliever from 50 years ago had higher moral standards than a regular Church goer today.
He sighted a long list of moral standards which the average unbeliever on the street believed in and held to. The main things were the views on abortion, adultery, homosexuality, crime and punishment, drug and alcohol abuse, divorce, fornication etc.

The comparison found that today's Christians are willing to accept many of those things in the Church, where as the average unbeliever would even vote for anyone who agreed with those things.
The Bible does warn us that the world world become like Sodom and Glamour, before the return of Christ. Those cities weren't just guilty of sexual immorality, they were lawless in every way and our world seems to be waxing worse with every passing year.

Yes, wherever the world is, Christianity is one step behind. What the world was doing yesterday, the Church is doing today. A downward spiral they go...

 

[1ofthem]

Calvinism doesn't cast a stumbling block or doubt on to others who the Lord is drawing. Quite the opposite.

It is freewillers who cast a stumbling block and doubt on others who the Lord may be drawing.

In Calvinism, there is nothing more concrete than the Lord drawing His People to Him.


The freewillers say that their own will can overcome Gods Will at any moment. This is the epitome of placing a stumbling block and doubt on to others who the Lord may be drawing.

I don't know where you get this information, but I have never heard anyone say that they overcome God's will. That would be stupid and blasphemous.

If you take all the scriptures together you can see the whole picture. God sent his Son that whosoever will believe in him shall not perish. God wants ALL men to be saved and come to repentance. That's just for starters here....Jesus says if I be lifted up I will draw all men to myself. The Holy Ghost has been sent into the world to convict all....Many, many, many more verses.....etc., etc., etc.

And I am going to proclaim that to all. I'm not going to reword that and cast doubt or a stumbling block in anyone's way. There is no way that I would ever try to limit God.

Really though, why would anyone want to limit atonement? How can you not see that this doctrine of Calvinism is a stumbling block to the lost?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the enemy is full of trickery and deceit....just like he was in the garden....He doesn't want anyone to believe in what God has said. And God has said whosoever, any, all, all men, that shall call upon him shall be saved....

To say any differently is to cast doubt and a stumbling block to the lost.

 

[Duskey]

37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
Matthew 23:37

40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
John 5:40

So God failed here?

Calvinism has the wrong view of God.

You have to admit Jesus looks really cool saying things that go against God’s plan of election.