TRuth Vs. Beliefs: Would you Read a Book Whose Back Cover Said This:

EmethAlethia · Jun 24, 2020

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Ultimately, I agree. God seeks all men, Rom. 1:18-32. Men respond to His truth. Apart from His seeking us first, as He explains in Rom. 1:18-32, no man would ever have the opportunity to be saved. As it says in that Romans passage, the non-religious lost suppress, reject, exchange the truth of God for a lie, choosing not to even retain any of the knowledge of Him that He writes into the hearts of every man.

The religious lost go to scriptures to justify what they want to believe as truth. Rom 10:1-3

The many who believe themselves to be Christians, the same many that are on the broad path that leads to destruction, the tares who have and do pretty much what the true Christians are doing, but who respond like dogs and pigs, and get angry when others question their infallible core beliefs/their version of Christianity, or simply ignore you because they know they already have unquestionably true core beliefs, who have stopped seeking, knocking, proving all things over and over again, altering their beliefs to fit the fullness of the truth rightly divided, are found in Mat. 7.

Ultimately though. everyone gets what they want from God Himself. People are given over to what they want to believe as truth if they do not receive a love of the truth that will drive them to avoid what all others do to hold fast to their beliefs "as" truth. But each man chooses their response to God's seeking of them.

2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

ALl of the other passages on how men choose to hold fast to what they want to believe "as" truth are included in this one. Atheist, religious non-Christian, believing yourself to be Christian, but failing the test, all is summarized here. Love truth and keep on doing what it takes to get to it eventually, or love your beliefs and hold fast to them. People stop seeking, knocking, proving all things over and over again, as a habit and way of life ... when they believe they have found. Yet God says that only those who keep on seeking, knocking, proving all things over and over again will find. If your beliefs are unquestionably true to the point where you would respond like those in Mat. 7:6 rather than 7:7-12, those who will receive the Holy Spirit in the parallel passage in Luke, then you will here the words of Jesus in Mat. 7:23.

oldethennew · Jun 24, 2020

Absolutely said:

===================================
we are very sure that there is no such thing as a 'carnal-christian'...
this would be like saying that The Holy Spirit would commit to dwell in the darkness
from which we were delivered from...not going to happen, it's a journey!
it's obvious that God sent Paul to be an example and teacher for us to learn how to
put away our old nature/habits, which are no longer acceptable...

after conversion, one can and often does revert to 'old, carnal-behaviours', as the Corinthians.
a new convert is not instantly a 'new-man' in every area of their lives, for we must 'run the race',
one day at a time, all the while we are learning to wear our new-born-natures, the 'new-man',
which will take us all a life-time.
one can and often does become 'weak' while on their Spiritual journey of 'over-coming',
but The Holy Spirit within will prevail' if it is the REAL DEAL, they will come-out' of their
old, fleshly behaviours, learn how to walk in The Light, and obey the Command to grow
in grace and Godly Character', it's the reality of deliverance...
we pray all of us may continue to grow and put away all that is not good or just in God's eyes...
it's our daily goal, 100%, for He is the Love of our lives...

EmethAlethia · Jun 24, 2020

oldethennew said:

There is a sin that leads to death ... ongoing, n on-repentant practice of sin leads to physical death,

1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

But then this was a person who knew better, as he was committing a sin that even the Gentiles cringed about. Knowing the truth, and choosing to sin anyway, always results in physical death nas God promises to reprove His kids ...

1Co 11:28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

True Christians ALWAYS receive their judgment now so that they don't have to be judged with the world. The carnal Christians didn't know any better. Once they were informed, they were responsible ... but they repented ... so God's grace covered that. N on-repentant living in sin is covered here:

Heb 12:5 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, "MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM; 6 FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES." 7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

Finally, after going through the steps of reproof, if your brother/sister doesn't listen to you and the 1-2 witnesses you bring when re;proving with all doctrine(Bible) and long-suffering, while it is still today lest they be hardened into their sin

1Jn 5:16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.

Absolutely · Jun 25, 2020

EmethAlethia said:

The stand you and others are taking is that ALL CHRISTIANS
ARE dedicated to a walk totally committed to heaven.

That they are "pauls" and "peters".
They have thrown off all tv,radio,and anything secular.

They ALL,WITHOUT FAIL,WALK LIKE PAUL. THEY " live and move and have their BEING in Jesus."
They ALL 100%, have died to sin and ALL 100% LIVE ABSOLUTE HOLY LIVES.
ALL WITHOUT FAIL HAVE NOT EVEN A HINT OF CARNALITY.
NEVER HAS BEEN ONE even slightly carnal believer....EVER!
without exception NO has ever fallen into sin as the prodigal has?????

To top it off,I am guessing you and several others that hold to that bizarre belief must have such a walk.

100% blown out for God.
Zero carnality.
Roman's 7 with the battle of the 2 natures is not a factor.

But it gets worse.
You guys say Nobody truly saved has ever been a carnal christian,as if that is an impossibility.

Bizarre!

Absolutely · Jun 25, 2020

1 Corinthians 3 King James Version (KJV)
3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Rom 8
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

See that?
That is saying the believer is constantly at a cross road.
The choices come daily to either ,through the spirit,mortify the flesh, are sink into it.

You guys serious???
You do not understand the 2 natures in every believer??????

Absolutely · Jun 25, 2020

Magenta said:

Nope
The standard or target is Holiness for the believer.

Some believers are carnal,but none of us is above it.

The dynamic stands.
There are carnal believers.
That is a irrefutable fact.

The verse stands that says "some are saved as through fire,they are saved,but their workspace burnt up"

Absolutely · Jun 25, 2020

EmethAlethia said:

There is a sin that leads to death ... ongoing, n on-repentant practice of sin leads to physical death,

1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

But then this was a person who knew better, as he was committing a sin that even the Gentiles cringed about. Knowing the truth, and choosing to sin anyway, always results in physical death nas God promises to reprove His kids ...

1Co 11:28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

True Christians ALWAYS receive their judgment now so that they don't have to be judged with the world. The carnal Christians didn't know any better. Once they were informed, they were responsible ... but they repented ... so God's grace covered that. N on-repentant living in sin is covered here:

Heb 12:5 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, "MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM; 6 FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES." 7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

Finally, after going through the steps of reproof, if your brother/sister doesn't listen to you and the 1-2 witnesses you bring when re;proving with all doctrine(Bible) and long-suffering, while it is still today lest they be hardened into their sin

1Jn 5:16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.

About the only biblical case you can make is that the target is holiness,a love and zeal,dedication and determination to walk holy.

You can not make a biblical case that there is no such thing as a carnal christian.

You also will never see the verse "some are saved as through fire,they are saved,but their works are burnt up"....go away

Absolutely · Jun 25, 2020

EmethAlethia said:

There is a sin that leads to death ... ongoing, n on-repentant practice of sin leads to physical death,

1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

But then this was a person who knew better, as he was committing a sin that even the Gentiles cringed about. Knowing the truth, and choosing to sin anyway, always results in physical death nas God promises to reprove His kids ...

1Co 11:28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

True Christians ALWAYS receive their judgment now so that they don't have to be judged with the world. The carnal Christians didn't know any better. Once they were informed, they were responsible ... but they repented ... so God's grace covered that. N on-repentant living in sin is covered here:

Heb 12:5 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, "MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM; 6 FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES." 7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

Finally, after going through the steps of reproof, if your brother/sister doesn't listen to you and the 1-2 witnesses you bring when re;proving with all doctrine(Bible) and long-suffering, while it is still today lest they be hardened into their sin

1Jn 5:16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.

Lol...you use the term "carnal christian"

Too funny.

Will await the inevitable thumbs downs.
We all know there is no such thing

Roll eyes

Absolutely · Jun 25, 2020

EmethAlethia said:

The carnal Christians were led astray by the false prophets, preachers ... who didn't have the gifts they professed to have ... 1Co. 12. As soon as Paul wrote this, they repented and corrected their bad behavior. For those who did not repent, Paul had this to say:

2Co 11:13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.

If you do not seek to get to truth and live in accordance with it, you aren't His, nor were you ever His. Look at all the different belief groups who believe Jesus is God, or "a" God. Look at all the belief groups who hold to the bible as "the" or "a" source of truth. Believing you have the truth with all your heart, mind, soul and strength doesn't save. Having tons of data gathered to prove your beliefs true and all opposing beliefs false doesn't save. ... every belief group from the Atheists to the Jews, to the Muslims, Jehovah's Witnesses, have all gathered everything they need to hold fast to what they want to believe "as" truth.

Knowledge doesn't save, but certainly a zeal for God with a lack of knowledge doesn't either:

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

Yes, everyone who seeks to justify their beliefs gets confirmation that their beliefs are truth. But the very fact that this is what they are doing proves that they want nothing to do with it. They love their beliefs. They hate truth.

Your post is on the target and that nature believers keep their eye on the target.
My statement on carnal believers is just simply that they exist.

Amazing how a bible truth is so readily reframed.

Magenta · Jun 25, 2020

Absolutely said:

Yes, I am aware of that verse, and understand what you are saying

Which is that some have no good works and yet are still saved due to their faith, by grace.

Jimbone · Jun 25, 2020

Absolutely said:

Wow, you took what they said and COMPLETELY either misunderstood it, or are just misrepresenting it to make yourself feel better. Does anyone ever stop to think that the truth might be somewhere in the middle of the two EXTREME sides of this topic? As is so often the case.

How about we are spiritually resurrected, yet still in the flesh. We are connected to God as we were created to be, Spiritually indwelt by Him to GUIDE us to all truth. I have a question Absolutely, do you live the exact same way you did before God changed you and you were born again? The way you speak seems to defend sin, I am pretty sure that's not what you feel, but so you know, that's what it looks like from where I'm standing here.

I have not heard or read, 1 person say what the scarecrow you just built is saying. Who claimed to be sinless after rebirth? I missed it. What we do have after being spiritually born is the DESIRE to do the Fathers will, and Him indwelling us to guide and empower us to become more like Him every day. I just think as far as you think they are overstating their argument, you're over blowing yours in the opposite direction. I honestly haven't seen anyone make the case you just dismantled. At all.

So I do have two questions I am truly curious about, the first was-
Do you live the exact same way you did before you were born again?
The second.
When you, being born again, find that you've sinned, do you think about it and react to it the same way as you did before?

I'd be more than willing to answer these for you too, just to be fair, but I am very curious to get a feel of what exactly you think being born again is, because honestly the way you speak sometimes suggest you feel there doesn't have to be a change for you to be a Christian, that change a RESULT not the price. That's wrong in my opinion, but might not even be what you're trying to say anyway. So I'm asking. Thanks and if you have any question for me to clear up exactly what I mean I am more than happy too. I'm not trying to "interrogate", or anything.

Jimbone · Jun 25, 2020

Absolutely said:

I will, but first you have to define "carnal Christian".

Magenta · Jun 25, 2020

Jimbone said:

Holy means to be set apart, so in that sense we are made holy as believers because we are set apart from the world, being in the world but no longer of the world. Some seem to think perfect means without sin, when it means complete, that is, we are complete in Him, our all-in-all is found in Him Who gave His life that we might have a life more abundant and attain to life ever after by grace through faith in His shed righteous blood to pay the sin death on our behalf due to His great and everlasting love for us, saving us from the second death. We are perfected in Him as we walk by faith, through the process of sanctification, though we will not put on the incorruptible and immortality until after the resurrection of all and judgment at the end of this age. It is difficult for me to say any could have no good works when the fruit of the Spirit is defined as love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Even if one does not have a LOT of those things on a continuous basis, is it possible to experience or evince absolutely none? That is what I wonder.

Magenta · Jun 25, 2020

I meant: to pay the sin DEBT on our behalf

oldethennew · Jun 25, 2020

EmethAlethia said:

There is a sin that leads to death ... ongoing, n on-repentant practice of sin leads to physical death,

1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

But then this was a person who knew better, as he was committing a sin that even the Gentiles cringed about. Knowing the truth, and choosing to sin anyway, always results in physical death nas God promises to reprove His kids ...

1Co 11:28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

True Christians ALWAYS receive their judgment now so that they don't have to be judged with the world. The carnal Christians didn't know any better. Once they were informed, they were responsible ... but they repented ... so God's grace covered that. N on-repentant living in sin is covered here:

Heb 12:5 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, "MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM; 6 FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES." 7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

Finally, after going through the steps of reproof, if your brother/sister doesn't listen to you and the 1-2 witnesses you bring when re;proving with all doctrine(Bible) and long-suffering, while it is still today lest they be hardened into their sin

1Jn 5:16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.[/QUOTE
===============================================
EM,
hub and I agree that sinners will not stand in the Judgment of the Righteous -
PSA. 1:5.
Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
and also that a believer may produce works that, as the scriptures says, 'won't withstand the fire',
1COR. 3:12.
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13.
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire;
and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14.
If any man's work abide which he has built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
6:9.
Know you not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?
Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10.
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit The Kingdom of God.
11.
And such were some of you: but you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified
in The Name of the Lord Jesus, and by The Spirit of our God.

we can see that you have spent a lot of time in Scriptural study, we certainly welcome your interaction.

oldethennew · Jun 25, 2020

Magenta,
we both have pondered that question over the years, and yes, we have surely learned
the hard way that God has infinite patience - on the other hand, we have experienced
the 'goodness and severity' of God -
personally, we would never have the 'nerve' to TRY and FIND OUT when God will run-out-of-patience,
for truly there is enough 'correction' to the 'seven churches' in Revelation to keep us on our toes,
and to never have an attitude of 'how-little-can-I-do, and still inherit The Kingdom???

thanks so much for your in-depth knowledge and understanding and sharing of The Holy Scriptures...

Magenta · Jun 25, 2020

On the other hand, carnality/acts of the flesh is defined as sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like.

EmethAlethia · Jun 26, 2020

Absolutely said:

Carnality = Being deceived, not knowing the truth, not having the truth revealed yet, ergo bot obeying truth due to a lack of knowledge, BUT NOT A LACK OF DESIRE OR PERSONAL EFFORT to get to truth. Once the Corintihians heard, they repented and altered their lives.

Ongoing practice of habitual sin, once we know truth always results in:

Co 11:28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

Heb 12:8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

EmethAlethia · Jun 26, 2020

Ongoing practice of habitual sin, once we know truth always results in:

Co 11:28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

Heb 12:8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

That we will see a lot of what we have done, "that we believe was for the Lord" burned away, and thus lose rewards is a fact, but that is a different judgment. We, His true kids, see His judgement now. Yes, loss of rewards is a "judgment" but not of the heaven/hell kind, just the rewards.

Habitual practice of these sins, always results in weakness, sickness, or physical death, like the man who was sleeping with his father's wife and was non-repentant in the church in 1Co. 5 "I have decided to deliver such a one over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh (physical death) so that His soul might be saved ..." Loss of physical life, salvation not affected. "Refusing" to judge yourself correctly as a Christian, i.e. knowing what to do and refusing to obey your Father, always results in the discipline in 1Co. 11 or Heb. 12:8 applies.

Prycejosh1987 · Jul 22, 2020

EmethAlethia said:

It says many are chosen and few are saved, i would say this number is quite accurate.

TRuth Vs. Beliefs: Would you Read a Book Whose Back Cover Said This:

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