Not By Works

[dcontroversal]

See I can not see this

I see god forknew according to his will. That whoever believes in him will
Never perish. That whoever sees and believes will have eternal
Life (be born again).

Not that god chose selected based on some random reason.

Amen......the predestination of saved men is found in this absolute truth. GOD predestinated salvation to All men that come to him in faith.

Why are ALL MEN without excuse? WHY are all men accountable?

Those two questions right there combined with both the physical and invisible testifying of God blows holes in his theology.

 

[Magenta]

John 12:31-32 Jesus has been lifted up and is drawing all to Himself.

 

[dcontroversal]

Disagree, in your view He has chosen to draw some and left the rest for damnation so the question is why some and not others which you cannot answer.

Stating He has the "right" begs the question.

Why are all men held accountable.....? The invisible and visible testifies.......and regardless, he is presenting Calvinism in it's purest form.....so....let me get this straight....The Lord's churches had it wrong until Calvin, an ex-Catholic penned his doctrine...

Not harldy!

 

[cv5]

Wow,

I thought the OSAS/NOSAS debate was a mine field; this free grace/forced grace (Correct terminology?) thing is pretty touchy for some I see.

What I see in scripture is that God offers the free gift of eternal life through repentance and belief. All men have a free will to either receive it, reject it, or come short of it.

The Bible teaches both, God's sovereign election and man's choice to receive or reject the free gift of salvation in Lord Jesus Messiah, therefore both are true.

Something to think about: Mathematically at least, paradox resolution occurs in higher dimensional space. It might not make sense to us down here but it does make sense up there.

 

[dcontroversal]

John 12:31-32Jesus has been lifted up and is drawing all to Himself.

Amen and MANY are called, but few CHOSEN....GRACE is indeed resistible!

 

[Blue_Of_Lake]

Disagree, in your view He has chosen to draw some and left the rest for damnation so the question is why some and not others which you cannot answer.

Stating He has the "right" begs the question.

Fatalism involves an impersonal force. Election deals with a loving God who chose to save a multitude who don‘t deserve to be saved to begin with.

Here is where ppl get election and predestination wrong. They think if God elects and predestines some and not all, He has done an injustice to those He left in their fallen state. That’s not true. The elect were just as lost, just as undeserving, just as much the God-hater the non-elect are. There was nothing in the elect that was missing in the non-elect and therefore God elected them. The non-elect weren’t any worse than the elect and therefore God left them in their fallen state.

The elect get grace(unmerited favor) and mercy, neither which they deserved. The non-elect get justice(what they deserve). He does injustice to no one.

God is love and this doesn't seem/feel very loving does it? so we are right to question it i guess.


take a physical Father for instance. this is not at all how he would act. you don't just help some of your children, you help them all. you dont just save some from danger if you can every time - you save them ALL.


except in a backward society maybe or maybe just with not a very big heart. a small heart in a backwards society and yeah, makes sense.


but how big is GOD'S HEART??

 

[dcontroversal]

I stated no such thing.

My bible teaches..

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Redefining "world" to mean elect does not stand up to scrutiny.

Most religions like to redefine the words to fit their theology....world is KOSMOS and it means the whole order of things...NOT JUST MEN!

 

[EleventhHour]

Why are all men held accountable.....? The invisible and visible testifies.......and regardless, he is presenting Calvinism in it's purest form.....so....let me get this straight....The Lord's churches had it wrong until Calvin, an ex-Catholic penned his doctrine...

Not hardy!

Why are all men held accountable

You know they never give the answers for the pitfalls ... but good point on the Lord's churches ... very good point indeed!!

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

God is love and this doesn't seem/feel very loving does it? so we are right to question it i guess.


take a physical Father for instance. this is not at all how he would act. you don't just help some of your children, you help them all. you dont just save some from danger if you can every time - you save them ALL.


except in a backward society maybe or maybe just with not a very big heart. a small heart in a backwards society and yeah, makes sense.


but how big is GOD'S HEART??????

Not everyone is God’s children. All are His creation, only the redeemed are His children.

 

[cv5]

Wow,

I thought the OSAS/NOSAS debate was a mine field; this free grace/forced grace (Correct terminology?) thing is pretty touchy for some I see.

What I see in scripture is that God offers the free gift of eternal life through repentance and belief. All men have a free will to either receive it, reject it, or come short of it.

Do you attend some kind of a Wesleyan Church or similar? Supposedly they have some kind of doctrine of the perfect sinless sanctification of saints.

 

[cv5]

God is love and this doesn't seem/feel very loving does it? so we are right to question it i guess.


take a physical Father for instance. this is not at all how he would act. you don't just help some of your children, you help them all. you dont just save some from danger if you can every time - you save them ALL.


except in a backward society maybe or maybe just with not a very big heart. a small heart in a backwards society and yeah, makes sense.


but how big is GOD'S HEART??

I preached one on one to several people this week including one Jewish person. Did these people reject the gospel of Jesus Christ willingly? As far as I could tell, Yes they did.

 

[Magenta]

Amen and MANY are called, but few CHOSEN....GRACE is indeed resistible!

I resisted for quite some time, and in light of the final outcome (here I am, Lord!) it is almost impossible to imagine any turning away for all time if and when the Truth has been placed before them. And of course we hear of even hardened atheists attempting to prove Biblical truths wrong, only to come to belief and faith in the process. And we also know the Biblical promise, even set against God knowing none seek Him, for people do still seek truth, and Jesus is the embodiment of all Truth, and those who seek, find. A regenerated heart is necessary, which God makes possible... that I cannot argue

 

[stonesoffire]

I preached one on one to several people this week including one Jewish person. Did these people reject the gospel of Jesus Christ willingly? As far as I could tell, Yes they did.

Seeds may of been planted too, that eventually get watered and sprout. You’ll know at the bema seat. 😉

 

[Micaiah-imla]

I guess you mean by COME SHORT of IT, means No Grace at ALL, thinking they can be good enough, to deserve heaven.

I do not remember if I told you, how come I came to Believe wholehearted in OSAS Theology. It was because of my personal experience of being SAVED after 3 attempts at suicide the last week of 1977. Prior to that I was just a church-goer and a proud Lutheran, thinking my infant Baptism meant I was saved. NOT EVEN CLOSE, went to church regularly, had the whole order of service Memorized, day-dreamed through Every Sermon, was PROUD the I went to Lutheran Service Volunteers (summer camp at the Lutheran College), was an Acolyte (Altar Boy) another source of pride, ETC. I was A LUTHERAN, LUTHERAN, NOT A Christian Lutheran.

Two nights I had a Pistol against my TEMPLE, with the Trigger half PULLED; the IMMENSE TERROR I FELT at the MOMENT, was strictly because I KNEW BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT, I was about to walk into Hades/Hell, if I finished pulling that trigger.

After weeping for hours, "Forgive me LORD", over and over again, even during the Dream or Vision, where AT HIS CROSS, I felt HIS WARM blood fall on my Forearms as I reached up to HIM from my KNEES. I felt the Holy Spirit come into my HEART (Human Spirit), and CHANGED my HEART FOREVER. I KNEW IT WAS REAL. I KNEW HE INSTANTLY MADE MY HEART TRUST HIM TOTALLY, FOREVER. I KNEW HE HAD A PLAN FOR MY LIFE. IT WAS A COMPLETE SURRENDER TO HIM, OUT OF INTENSE LOVE FOR HIM. And I think one of my PRIMARY Spiritual Gifts was that TOTAL TRUST IN HIM. It is FRESH IN MY MIND, and YES I AM SMILING, as I type this.

THE Church I grew up in, NEVER TAUGHT BORN AGAIN, NEVER TAUGHT THAT TOTAL TRUST IN HIM WAS POSSIBLE, IT ALL HAD TO COME FROM THE HOLY SPIRIT. There is a CHANGE in the HEART, that NEVER FADES. I AM NOT MY OWN, I HAVE BEEN BOUGHT WITH A PRICE.
HE WILL NEVER, LET GO OF ME! AND I KNEW THAT FROM THE VERY BEGINNING, that night of my Third attempt at Suicide. I HAD THE OPPOSITE INTENSE FEELING OF KNOWING THAT I WAS GOING TO STEP INTO HADES/HELL, a couple Days EARLIER, if I finish Pulling that Trigger. It is VERY REAL, so VERY REAL!


Romans 8:30 (HCSB)
30 And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified.

Thank God for his grace!

You did post this testimony to me a few months ago.

Thanks for sharing it again.

 

[Magenta]

Not everyone is God’s children. All are His creation, only the redeemed are His children.

We are not called His children until after we believe by grace through faith.

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God to those who believe in His name.

Berean Bible study says: But to all who did receive Him, to those who
believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God

We are all born as enemies, and hostile toward, God.

 

[Blue_Of_Lake]

I preached one on one to several people this week including one Jewish person. Did these people reject the gospel of Jesus Christ willingly? As far as I could tell, Yes they did.

but why did they reject it? are their hearts small? give them time and experience (and trials and blessings), and teachings and knowledge and i bet they'd be a Christian, a real one.

 

[Micaiah-imla]

Do you attend some kind of a Wesleyan Church or similar? Supposedly they have some kind of doctrine of the perfect sinless sanctification of saints.

No. Never attended a Wesleyan Church.

I used to attend an Independent Fundamental Baptist Church.

They stray from the word in many ways in my estimation when compared to the word of God.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

We are not called His children until after we believe by grace through faith.

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God to those who believe in His name.

Berean Bible study says: But to all who did receive Him, to those who
believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God

Correct. But who are those who received Him? Those born of God.[John 1:13] Just like it says those who love are born of God. It is through the new birth a new heart and spirit is given[Ezekiel 11:19 & 36:26] and they now love Him.[1 John 4:7]

 

[Magenta]

Correct. But who are those who received Him? Those born of God.[John 1:13] Just like it says those who love are born of God. It is through the new birth a new heart and spirit is given[Ezekiel 11:19 & 36:26] and they now love Him.[1 John 4:7]

Born again.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

God is love and this doesn't seem/feel very loving does it? so we are right to question it i guess.


take a physical Father for instance. this is not at all how he would act. you don't just help some of your children, you help them all. you dont just save some from danger if you can every time - you save them ALL.


except in a backward society maybe or maybe just with not a very big heart. a small heart in a backwards society and yeah, makes sense.


but how big is GOD'S HEART??

When I study, I do my very best to do so through God’s attributes. Let’s look at two, love and immutability. If God loves everyone whoever lived, then which is the correct outcome on the day of judgment?

1) He goes from loving those who died lost to hating them and punishing them in an eternal hell. This means He is no longer immutable as He has changed. And if He changes, He is no different than us, and nulls and voids Psalm 50:21.

2) He loves them that died lost and still punished them with an eternal torment in hell. He is now a cruel God who is punishing those He loves in an eternal hell.

3) Those who stand before Him condemned were vessels of wrath and never vessels of mercy(Romans 9). Therefore, on the day of judgment, He gives them their just reward.

Option # 3 is the biblical answer.