I DON'T BELIEVE THE MILLENIUM WILL BE ON EARTH, BUT RATHER, UP IN HEAVEN

[Truth7t7]

What is your understanding of
Revelation Chapter 20? Thanks.

I look forward to answering any further questions you might have?

Revelation 20:1-7 (Thousand Years) is nothing more than a human explanation of God's eternal realm of no physical time, (Non-Literal)

You will closely note that this is in the Lords spiritual realm 100% Angel, Heaven, Devil, The Souls, The Dead.

This non-literal 1,000 years is taking place Now in the Lords spiritual

Satan is currently bound from "One Specific Purpose" and this purpose only, "Deceiving The Nations To Battle" as verse 7 shows how he is loosed at the end of the tribulation to deceive the nations to the final battle.

Verse 9 below is the last day final judgement by fire, 2 Peter 3:10, Zechariah 14:12

All believers old and new Testament alike partake in the "First Resurrection" on the last day, there are "Two" resurrections on this last day?

"First" eternal life, "Second" eternal damnation, John 5:28-29, Dan 12:1-2

Revelation 20:1-9KJV
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Corban]

Now, we all know that we may not interpret scripture privately (2nd Pet.1:20). So we must turn to scripture to define "the DAY" in which the earth is dissolved by fire. Scripture gives us 5 possibilities. They are;

1. The period of daylight - sunrise to sunset (e.g. Gen.1:5)
2. 24 hours - the evening and the morning (e.g. Gen.1:8)
3. An event like the "Day of the Lord" (e.g. 2nd Pet.3:10)
4. 1 year - mostly used in prophecy (e.g. Nu.14:34; Ezek.4:6; Dan.9:24-26)
5. 1,000 years is as a DAY to God (Ps.90:4; 2nd Pet.3:8)

Which one fits 2nd Peter 3:10-15?

Let's see. In Isaiah 34:8 it is at least a year. "For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion." And in Jeremiah 46:10, "For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates", we see that besides saving Jerusalem, besides going to Megiddo in Jezreel to fight the beast's armies, besides going down to Bozrah for vengeance on Edom (south of Jerusalem), Christ has a bloody appointment in the most northern part - in the region of Babylon. Added to this, Christ must command angels to gather Israel from the four winds (Matt.24:31), then judge them (Dan.12:2). Then our Lord must set up His "Throne of Glory" and judge the nations who survive Armageddon (Matt.25:31-46), and then still rule the nations with a rod of iron.

Who thinks that all of this will take a day of 24 hours? Which of the five "days" of scripture looks likely now?

Now, we must add to this a future Sabbath. Hebrews Chapters 3 and 4 speak of a future Sabbath for God's people. And again, we may not interpret scripture with our own minds. We must define a Sabbath from scripture. Adam was cretaed last of the living creatures - propably late on the sixth day. That means that his first day was the Sabbath of God. Now, each of the six days where God brought the earth to pristine condition is defined by "the evening and the morning" - that is, a Hebrew day of 24 hours starting at sunset. But then, against everything up until then, God does not define the Sabbath by "the evening and the morning". He defines the Sabbath by the length of Adam's life. The exact words of scripture in Genesis 2:17 are; "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for IN the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

Adam lived 930 years. Which one do you think fits? In which of scripture's "days" did Adam die? Only ONE fits - point # 5 above - 1,000 years. But this is not all. In Hebrews 3 and 4 two more Sabbaths are mentioned. One is the future Sabbath which we are investigating, and the other is Israel's occupation of the Good Land of Canaan. The Holy Spirit says that those Israelites who fell in the wilderness, did not ENTER God's Rest. And those who did enter Canaan did not fulfill God's REST. If we do the maths, the time from Israel crossing the Jordan under Joshua to conquer Canaan, until Nebuchadnezzar deported the last Israelites out of the Canaan, IS JUST UNDER 1,000 YEARS!!! That is, the future Sabbath Rest for God's people is DOUBLY defined by 1,000 years.

I propose that the "Day of the Lord", in which we have our resurrection, the Great Tribulation, the various days of Judgement, the Millennial RULE of Christ and the resurrection of the "rest of the dead" in Revelation Chapter 20, IS 1,000 YEARS. And if so, all objections to the Millennium disappear. It is just a matter of interpreting scripture with scripture and not with the fallen human mind.

 

[Corban]

I look forward to answering any further questions you might have?

Revelation 20:1-7 (Thousand Years) is nothing more than a human explanation of God's eternal realm of no physical time, (Non-Literal)

You will closely note that this is in the Lords spiritual realm 100% Angel, Heaven, Devil, The Souls, The Dead.

This non-literal 1,000 years is taking place Now in the Lords spiritual

Satan is currently bound from "One Specific Purpose" and this purpose only, "Deceiving The Nations To Battle" as verse 7 shows how he is loosed at the end of the tribulation to deceive the nations to the final battle.

Verse 9 below is the last day final judgement by fire, 2 Peter 3:10, Zechariah 14:12

All believers old and new Testament alike partake in the "First Resurrection" on the last day, there are "Two" resurrections on this last day?

"First" eternal life, "Second" eternal damnation, John 5:28-29, Dan 12:1-2

Revelation 20:1-9KJV
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

OK. Let's run with your argument that the contents of Revelation 20 are spiritual in nature. The meaning of "spiritual" is either (i) it is spirit in nature, Like God (Jn.4:24), or (ii) it has its origin in the Holy Spirit, like the gifts of 1st Corinthians 12. So, that would mean that;

1. "heaven" in verse 1 is spiritual
2. "the bottomless pit" in verse 1 is spiritual
3. "the nations" in verse 3 are spiritual
4. the men who opposed the Beast were spiritual, had spiritual heads and and died spiritually at the hand of a spiritual Beast
5. the "witness of Jesus" is spiritual, and even Christ in verse 4 is spiritual
6. The priests of God are spiritual,
7. ... and so on. Nothing is physical - not even Christ

I propose that there is no reason for "spiritualizing" everything. Not only is there no hint of these things being spiritual, but;

• Angels are real in the Bible
• There is a Bottomless Pit with at least two sections - Hades and Tartaroo (2nd Pet.2:4) where dead men and fallen angels are imprisoned. Even our Lord Jesus spent 3 days there (Act.2:28-34)
• The "serpent" who has grown to be a Dragon is real. He tempted a real Eve
• The Nations are real. They appear all through the Bible
• Revelation 2:27 promised Christians who overcame apostasy in the Church the reward of ruling the Nations
• God's promise to Abraham was that he and his seed would "possess the gates of his enemies". A "Gate" in parable is government (Deut.21:19)
• Dying for the "witness of Jesus has been around since Stephen in Acts 7
• Dying for the word of God has been around since Abel
• The Beast is a man. His number is the "number of a man"
• THREE times is the period of rule called "A" thousand years - a specific number of years
• THREE times is the period of time called "THE" thousand years - a specific period
• In literal time this period would be the SEVENTH 1,000 year period since Adam - a Sabbath of 1,000 year days. God's previous restoration in Genesis Chapter 1 took six days and ended with a Sabbath in which God had His man in place
• Even if, after all this proof, you take the 1,000 years, symbolically, allegorically or spiritually there is still a time of rule between the first resurrection and the resurrection of the "rest of the dead".
• In 1st Corinthians 15:22-28 Christ must reign, WITH "those who are His" until death is subdued.
• The battle where the Beast is defeated is at the end of the Great Tribulation - a massive slaughter. These stay dead till "the end"
• The battle where Magog is defeated is after the 1,000 years. Even if the period is symbolic, allegorical or spiritual, there is a period between two huge slaughters. Thus, at the end of the period, death is till not defeated until all enemies of God are resurrected.

I propose that Revelation 20 is ALL LITERAL.

 

[Truth7t7]

OK. Let's run with your argument that the contents of Revelation 20 are spiritual in nature. The meaning of "spiritual" is either (i) it is spirit in nature, Like God (Jn.4:24), or (ii) it has its origin in the Holy Spirit, like the gifts of 1st Corinthians 12. So, that would mean that;

1. "heaven" in verse 1 is spiritual
2. "the bottomless pit" in verse 1 is spiritual
3. "the nations" in verse 3 are spiritual
4. the men who opposed the Beast were spiritual, had spiritual heads and and died spiritually at the hand of a spiritual Beast
5. the "witness of Jesus" is spiritual, and even Christ in verse 4 is spiritual
6. The priests of God are spiritual,
7. ... and so on. Nothing is physical - not even Christ

I propose that there is no reason for "spiritualizing" everything. Not only is there no hint of these things being spiritual, but;

• Angels are real in the Bible
• There is a Bottomless Pit with at least two sections - Hades and Tartaroo (2nd Pet.2:4) where dead men and fallen angels are imprisoned. Even our Lord Jesus spent 3 days there (Act.2:28-34)
• The "serpent" who has grown to be a Dragon is real. He tempted a real Eve
• The Nations are real. They appear all through the Bible
• Revelation 2:27 promised Christians who overcame apostasy in the Church the reward of ruling the Nations
• God's promise to Abraham was that he and his seed would "possess the gates of his enemies". A "Gate" in parable is government (Deut.21:19)
• Dying for the "witness of Jesus has been around since Stephen in Acts 7
• Dying for the word of God has been around since Abel
• The Beast is a man. His number is the "number of a man"
• THREE times is the period of rule called "A" thousand years - a specific number of years
• THREE times is the period of time called "THE" thousand years - a specific period
• In literal time this period would be the SEVENTH 1,000 year period since Adam - a Sabbath of 1,000 year days. God's previous restoration in Genesis Chapter 1 took six days and ended with a Sabbath in which God had His man in place
• Even if, after all this proof, you take the 1,000 years, symbolically, allegorically or spiritually there is still a time of rule between the first resurrection and the resurrection of the "rest of the dead".
• In 1st Corinthians 15:22-28 Christ must reign, WITH "those who are His" until death is subdued.
• The battle where the Beast is defeated is at the end of the Great Tribulation - a massive slaughter. These stay dead till "the end"
• The battle where Magog is defeated is after the 1,000 years. Even if the period is symbolic, allegorical or spiritual, there is a period between two huge slaughters. Thus, at the end of the period, death is till not defeated until all enemies of God are resurrected.

I propose that Revelation 20 is ALL LITERAL.

I propose Revelation 20:1-6 is 100% in the Lord's spiritual realm of no earthly time.

No kingdom onthis earth or humans seen, 100% in the spiritual realm of "No Time"

Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[Truth7t7]

I respect your view, but it isn't what i see. I have observed that the prophetic parts of the Bible, have many symbolisms, which adds to the difficulty for many, in efforts to correctly understanding them. To me, it appears that eternity with God, is to be centered up in heaven, while this present earth, is to be completely destroyed upon Jesus' return - to get all the remaining saints of earth, to bring them back to heaven with Him.
2 Peter 3:10

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up
KJV

1 Thess 4:16-17

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

Matt 13:39-40

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
KJV

Do you believe in future New Heavens, Earth, Jerusalem, Pearl gates, streets of gold, as seen in Revelation chapter 21?

 

[Kolistus]

You've got it backwards. Jesus and the Father are in Heaven, but all peoples, nations, and languages are on earth. Therefore He comes from Heaven to earth as confirmed by numerous Scriptures.

You posted the Scripture. "I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of Man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of Days " <- Where is the Ancient of Days, in heaven, Jesus comes to the Father. So no, YOU got it backwards, Matthew 24:30 does mention Jesus coming back and I do believe that as well

 

[Truth7t7]

You posted the Scripture. "I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of Man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of Days " <- Where is the Ancient of Days, in heaven, Jesus comes to the Father. So no, YOU got it backwards, Matthew 24:30 does mention Jesus coming back and I do believe that as well

Jesus Christ returns in fire and final judgement

Immediately after the tribulation, as the resurrection of all takes place, as the living believers are raptured/caught up, as this existing earth is "DISSOLVED" by the Lords fire in final judgement, as the New Heavens, Earth, And Jerusalem are revealed for eternity, all in the twinkling of an eye.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-8KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[Kolistus]

I propose Revelation 20:1-6 is 100% in the Lord's spiritual realm of no earthly time.

No kingdom onthis earth or humans seen, 100% in the spiritual realm of "No Time"

Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Sounds great, but at the end of it satan is released and will deceive the nations, we know the nations are on the earth, right?

 

[Corban]

I propose Revelation 20:1-6 is 100% in the Lord's spiritual realm of no earthly time.

No kingdom onthis earth or humans seen, 100% in the spiritual realm of "No Time"

Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

That's fair enough. I'll respect that.

 

[Truth7t7]

Sounds great, but at the end of it satan is released and will deceive the nations, we know the nations are on the earth, right?

Your 100% correct, Satan is bound "Currently" from "One Specific Purpose" that is "Deceiving The Nations" Revelation 20:7 interprets this, deceive the nations to the final battle, as Satan is released into the realm of earth, as seen in Rev 16:12-17 below.

This takes place just prior to the second coming, as Rev 20:9 shows the last day judgement by the Lords fire at his appearance, 2 Peter 3:10-13 the Heavens and Earth are dissolved by this fire, Zech 14:12 as men are "Consumed"

Revelation 20:7-9KJV
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Revelation 16:12-17 below is a parallel teaching of Rev 20:7-9, the 6th vial currently has Satan bound, at the end of the tribulation this vial will be poured out allowing Satan to perform God's will in "Deceiving The Nation" to the final battle, as the nation's are gathered by devil's going forth.

Revelation 16:12-17KJV
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

 

[Blade]

Well.. I just read whats written and seems for me very easy to understand...its here.

And wow allot of copy and pasting about, well I think it was about Christ desending.. but much of what was posted.. did not address that. Try to put in your own words

 

[Kolistus]

Your 100% correct, Satan is bound "Currently" from "One Specific Purpose" that is "Deceiving The Nations" Revelation 20:7 interprets this, deceive the nations to the final battle, as Satan is released into the realm of earth, as seen in Rev 16:12-17 below.

This takes place just prior to the second coming, as Rev 20:9 shows the last day judgement by the Lords fire at his appearance, 2 Peter 3:10-13 the Heavens and Earth are dissolved by this fire, Zech 14:12 as men are "Consumed"

Revelation 20:7-9KJV
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Revelation 16:12-17 below is a parallel teaching of Rev 20:7-9, the 6th vial currently has Satan bound, at the end of the tribulation this vial will be poured out allowing Satan to perform God's will in "Deceiving The Nation" to the final battle, as the nation's are gathered by devil's going forth.

Revelation 16:12-17KJV
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Interesting view point, have never seen that. I want to know more about what you believe

 

[Ahwatukee]

I DON'T BELIEVE THE MILLENIUM WILL BE ON EARTH, BUT RATHER, UP IN HEAVEN
Some Christians sincerely believe that Jesus will spend a millenium of years on earth together on earth. Though I respect their view, this is not how it looks to me in light of the scriptures on that subject, (I Thessalonians 4:16-17) that I know.

Good day, MyrtleTrees!

I Thessalonians 4:16-17 is in reference to the appearing of the Lord to gather the church, both dead and living and to take us back to the Father's house. However, Rev.17:14 & 19:14 also demonstrates that we will return with the Lord to this present earth after God's wrath has been poured out.

One of the characteristics of the millennial kingdom is found in Isaiah 2:4, is where the Lord will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. At that time they will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks and Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore, which would indicate that the Lord's thousand year kingdom will take place on this present earth.

In further support of this, Rev.20:1-3 states that at the on-set of the thousand years Satan is sealed up in the Abyss so that he will not be able to deceive the nations until the thousand years are completed. That said, according to Rev.9:1-2, the Abyss is located under this present earth. If the millennial kingdom was in heaven, Satan would not be able to deceive the nations anyway, because he and his angels will have been cast out of heaven to the earth in the middle of the tribulation period and would no longer have access to it as described in Rev.12:7. In addition, when Satan is released at the end of the thousand years (Rev.20:7-8), it states that he deceives the nations and they march across the broad expanse of the earth and surround the camp of the saints and the beloved city.

In conclusion then, these combined scriptures and more, puts the millennial kingdom as taking place on this present earth. We know that these events will not be taking place on the new earth, because at that time God will make all things new and there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the former things will have passed away.

I also believe that according to Bible numerology teachings, that both 10 and the multiple of 10, symbolically refer to a complete number. I don't believe it means an exact number, but more likely, just a rounded off number, in some cases. And when it refers to eternity in heaven, it is numberless as it is eternity. And in other cases, it just refers to a great, total number of something. Such as the 144,000 (number created by multiplying 12 by 12 by 1000) people of all nations in heaven, after the rapture - Revelation 7:4; 14:1 & 3; and chapter 21

Personally, I think that you would do well to stay away from the numerology teachings. For by using them many have identified the beast as being Nero, Hitler and a good number of US presidents, which have all proven false. In using this method many disregard the literal meaning of scripture in favor of the numerology. For example, by this numerology, they change the 144,000 into an unknown amount opposed to what is literally written. By using this method people can make the word of God to mean anything that supports their belief.

 

[Truth7t7]

Good day, MyrtleTrees!

I Thessalonians 4:16-17 is in reference to the appearing of the Lord to gather the church, both dead and living and to take us back to the Father's house. However, Rev.17:14 & 19:14 also demonstrates that we will return with the Lord to this present earth after God's wrath has been poured out.

One of the characteristics of the millennial kingdom is found in Isaiah 2:4, is where the Lord will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. At that time they will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks and Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore, which would indicate that the Lord's thousand year kingdom will take place on this present earth.

In further support of this, Rev.20:1-3 states that at the on-set of the thousand years Satan is sealed up in the Abyss so that he will not be able to deceive the nations until the thousand years are completed. That said, according to Rev.9:1-2, the Abyss is located under this present earth. If the millennial kingdom was in heaven, Satan would not be able to deceive the nations anyway, because he and his angels will have been cast out of heaven to the earth in the middle of the tribulation period and would no longer have access to it as described in Rev.12:7. In addition, when Satan is released at the end of the thousand years (Rev.20:7-8), it states that he deceives the nations and they march across the broad expanse of the earth and surround the camp of the saints and the beloved city.

In conclusion then, these combined scriptures and more, puts the millennial kingdom as taking place on this present earth. We know that these events will not be taking place on the new earth, because at that time God will make all things new and there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the former things will have passed away.

Personally, I think that you would do well to stay away from the numerology teachings. For by using them many have identified the beast as being Nero, Hitler and a good number of US presidents, which have all proven false. In using this method many disregard the literal meaning of scripture in favor of the numerology. For example, by this numerology, they change the 144,000 into an unknown amount opposed to what is literally written. By using this method people can make the word of God to mean anything that supports their belief.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 that you reference as a "Pre-Trib Rapture" is 100% false

These verse clearly show the "Second Coming" and the last day resurrection, yes Jesus Christ taught that the believer would be resurrected on "The Last Day" as your eschatology is in denial of this scriptural truth.

"The Second Coming, Last Day Resurrection"

1 THessalonians 4:14-17KJV
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

"The Last Day Resurrection"

John 6:40KJV
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:23-24KJV
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

 

[Truth7t7]

Good day, MyrtleTrees!

I Thessalonians 4:16-17 is in reference to the appearing of the Lord to gather the church, both dead and living and to take us back to the Father's house. However, Rev.17:14 & 19:14 also demonstrates that we will return with the Lord to this present earth after God's wrath has been poured out.

One of the characteristics of the millennial kingdom is found in Isaiah 2:4, is where the Lord will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. At that time they will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks and Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore, which would indicate that the Lord's thousand year kingdom will take place on this present earth.

In further support of this, Rev.20:1-3 states that at the on-set of the thousand years Satan is sealed up in the Abyss so that he will not be able to deceive the nations until the thousand years are completed. That said, according to Rev.9:1-2, the Abyss is located under this present earth. If the millennial kingdom was in heaven, Satan would not be able to deceive the nations anyway, because he and his angels will have been cast out of heaven to the earth in the middle of the tribulation period and would no longer have access to it as described in Rev.12:7. In addition, when Satan is released at the end of the thousand years (Rev.20:7-8), it states that he deceives the nations and they march across the broad expanse of the earth and surround the camp of the saints and the beloved city.

In conclusion then, these combined scriptures and more, puts the millennial kingdom as taking place on this present earth. We know that these events will not be taking place on the new earth, because at that time God will make all things new and there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the former things will have passed away.



Personally, I think that you would do well to stay away from the numerology teachings. For by using them many have identified the beast as being Nero, Hitler and a good number of US presidents, which have all proven false. In using this method many disregard the literal meaning of scripture in favor of the numerology. For example, by this numerology, they change the 144,000 into an unknown amount opposed to what is literally written. By using this method people can make the word of God to mean anything that supports their belief.

Your claim that Joel chapter 2 represents a millennial kingdom on "This Earth" is 100% false.

Those seen beating swords into plowshares are in the "Eternal Kingdom" New Heaven and Earth.

Joel chap 2 represents the final day of the Lords wrath, as Joel 2:22 below clearly shows "Mans Breath Is Taken Away" Human Life Ceases!

"Cease Ye From Man, Whose Breath Is In His Nostrils"

Isaiah 2:20-22KJV
20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;
21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of ?

As clearly seen below, Revelation 6:13-17 below is a parallel teaching of the exact same event, stars fall from heaven, the heavens depart as a scroll, every Island and mountain moved out of place.

"For The Great Day Of His Wrath Is Come"

Revelation 6:13-17KJV
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

[Adstar]

I DON'T BELIEVE THE MILLENIUM WILL BE ON EARTH, BUT RATHER, UP IN HEAVEN
Some Christians sincerely believe that Jesus will spend a millenium of years on earth together on earth. Though I respect their view, this is not how it looks to me in light of the scriptures on that subject, (I Thessalonians 4:16-17) that I know. I also believe that according to Bible numerology teachings, that both 10 and the multiple of 10, symbolically refer to a complete number. I don't believe it means an exact number, but more likely, just a rounded off number, in some cases. And when it refers to eternity in heaven, it is numberless as it is eternity. And in other cases, it just refers to a great, total number of something. Such as the 144,000 (number created by multiplying 12 by 12 by 1000) people of all nations in heaven, after the rapture - Revelation 7:4; 14:1 & 3; and chapter 21
If you'd like to study Bible numerology, go to this link I found:
https://www.biblestudy.org/bibleref/meaning-of-numbers-in-bible/10000.html
Below, I copied their mention of various places in the Bible where the number 10,000 is used:
The Meaning of Numbers: The Number 10,000
The number 10,000 derives part of its Bible meaning from the fact that it is sometimes used to denote a group that is innumerable or countless (see Paul and Revelation's use below). It also has a relationship with several Judges of Israel.
Haman, Prime Minister of Persia, was willing to pay the empire's king 10,000 talents of silver (worth around $180 million today) to defray the cost of murdering all the Jews in the kingdom (Esther 3:9)!
Deborah, a prophetess who was Israel's Judge, summons a man named Barak. Inspired by God, she charges him with gathering 10,000 men to fight King Jabin's army in order to free Israel of his twenty-year oppression (Judges 4:1 - 7, 14). Barak agrees to lead the army into battle only if Deborah comes with him (verse 8). After Israel defeats their oppressor the people enjoy forty years of peace (5:31).
Gideon is called by God to free his people from Midianite domination. He sends messengers to four Israelite tribes asking men to volunteer to fight Midian (Judges 6:1 - 35).
About 32,000 men come to Gideon, far more than God is willing to use to defeat the enemy. Those who are afraid or fearful are told to go back home, leaving an army of ten thousand (Judges 7:2 - 3). The army is still too large for the Eternal, and it is ultimately whittled down to only 300 before it can win a mighty victory (verses 4 - 7).
God called Ehud, a rare left-handed warrior, to save his people from the oppression of the Moabites (Judges 3:12 - 15). After killing Eglon, Moab's king, Ehud rallies the Israelites to fight against their enemies. The King James Bible then states something odd about the Moabites who were killed.
And they (the Israelites) slew of Moab at that time about ten thousand men, ALL LUSTY, and all men of valor; and there escaped not a man (Judges 3:29, KJV).
Paul's use of the number 10,000
Paul loved the church at Corinth in spite of their many difficulties and the tremendous effort he expended on their behalf. He expressed his special spiritual relationship with them using 10,000.
For you might have ten thousand tutors in Christ, but you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I did beget you through the gospel (1Corinthians 4:15).
Apostle Paul, several chapters later, again uses 10,000 to illustrate a point. He utilizes it to show the overwhelming importance of speaking words that others can understand versus the overrated gift of speaking in tongues (other languages).
But in the church, I desire to speak five words with my understanding rather than ten thousand words in an unknown language, so that I may also instruct others (1Corinthians 14:19).
In the Bible, 10,000 is used in its last book to describe the vast quantity of righteous spirit beings that surround the Eternal's throne. If taken literally, the verse in question is likely delineating the largest number recorded in God's word!
And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands (Revelation 5:11, KJV).

Numerology NOPE..

Scripture should be interpreted by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.. Not numerology..

As for the 1000 years if you reads revelation it is clear where the Saints will be at the end of the 1000 years and it will not be in heaven..

Revelation 20: KJV
7 "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, {8} And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. {9} And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. {10} And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Anyone reading this will see that the Saints will not be in heaven during the 1000 years they will be on earth and will be living around Jerusalem the beloved city..

 

[Ahwatukee]

Numerology NOPE..

Scripture should be interpreted by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.. Not numerology..

As for the 1000 years if you reads revelation it is clear where the Saints will be at the end of the 1000 years and it will not be in heaven..

Revelation 20: KJV
7 "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, {8} And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. {9} And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. {10} And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Anyone reading this will see that the Saints will not be in heaven during the 1000 years they will be on earth and will be living around Jerusalem the beloved city..

Not to mention the fact that Jesus said that those of the church who overcome will rule the nations with Him (Rev.2:26), as well as the 144,000/Male Child (Rev.12:5) and the resurrected great tribulation saints (Rev.20:4)

 

[KJV1611]

I DON'T BELIEVE THE MILLENIUM WILL BE ON EARTH, BUT RATHER, UP IN HEAVEN
Some Christians sincerely believe that Jesus will spend a millenium of years on earth together on earth. Though I respect their view, this is not how it looks to me in light of the scriptures on that subject, (I Thessalonians 4:16-17) that I know. I also believe that according to Bible numerology teachings, that both 10 and the multiple of 10, symbolically refer to a complete number. I don't believe it means an exact number, but more likely, just a rounded off number, in some cases. And when it refers to eternity in heaven, it is numberless as it is eternity. And in other cases, it just refers to a great, total number of something. Such as the 144,000 (number created by multiplying 12 by 12 by 1000) people of all nations in heaven, after the rapture - Revelation 7:4; 14:1 & 3; and chapter 21
If you'd like to study Bible numerology, go to this link I found:
https://www.biblestudy.org/bibleref/meaning-of-numbers-in-bible/10000.html
Below, I copied their mention of various places in the Bible where the number 10,000 is used:
The Meaning of Numbers: The Number 10,000
The number 10,000 derives part of its Bible meaning from the fact that it is sometimes used to denote a group that is innumerable or countless (see Paul and Revelation's use below). It also has a relationship with several Judges of Israel.
Haman, Prime Minister of Persia, was willing to pay the empire's king 10,000 talents of silver (worth around $180 million today) to defray the cost of murdering all the Jews in the kingdom (Esther 3:9)!
Deborah, a prophetess who was Israel's Judge, summons a man named Barak. Inspired by God, she charges him with gathering 10,000 men to fight King Jabin's army in order to free Israel of his twenty-year oppression (Judges 4:1 - 7, 14). Barak agrees to lead the army into battle only if Deborah comes with him (verse 8). After Israel defeats their oppressor the people enjoy forty years of peace (5:31).
Gideon is called by God to free his people from Midianite domination. He sends messengers to four Israelite tribes asking men to volunteer to fight Midian (Judges 6:1 - 35).
About 32,000 men come to Gideon, far more than God is willing to use to defeat the enemy. Those who are afraid or fearful are told to go back home, leaving an army of ten thousand (Judges 7:2 - 3). The army is still too large for the Eternal, and it is ultimately whittled down to only 300 before it can win a mighty victory (verses 4 - 7).
God called Ehud, a rare left-handed warrior, to save his people from the oppression of the Moabites (Judges 3:12 - 15). After killing Eglon, Moab's king, Ehud rallies the Israelites to fight against their enemies. The King James Bible then states something odd about the Moabites who were killed.
And they (the Israelites) slew of Moab at that time about ten thousand men, ALL LUSTY, and all men of valor; and there escaped not a man (Judges 3:29, KJV).
Paul's use of the number 10,000
Paul loved the church at Corinth in spite of their many difficulties and the tremendous effort he expended on their behalf. He expressed his special spiritual relationship with them using 10,000.
For you might have ten thousand tutors in Christ, but you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I did beget you through the gospel (1Corinthians 4:15).
Apostle Paul, several chapters later, again uses 10,000 to illustrate a point. He utilizes it to show the overwhelming importance of speaking words that others can understand versus the overrated gift of speaking in tongues (other languages).
But in the church, I desire to speak five words with my understanding rather than ten thousand words in an unknown language, so that I may also instruct others (1Corinthians 14:19).
In the Bible, 10,000 is used in its last book to describe the vast quantity of righteous spirit beings that surround the Eternal's throne. If taken literally, the verse in question is likely delineating the largest number recorded in God's word!
And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands (Revelation 5:11, KJV).

10 in the bible represents dominion, think of it like the 10 commandments have dominion over us. 10 X 10 X 10 is a threefold dominion. The dominion of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit of his people. So 10 thousand represents those that were under the law (Old Testament Saints) that also lived under the dominion of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit... AKA, the millennial reign of Christ.

 

[MyrtleTrees]

Thanks Myrtle Trees, for your input. I like that you notice that numbers, like other words in the Bible (that are not numbers), have a parable or representational meaning rather than a surface meaning. The Bible is written this way. In Psalm 78:2, we read that God opens his mouth in a parable. The way that God opens his mouth is the Bible. It is written in parable form. We read in Mark 34 that without a parable God does not speak unto them. In other words, when he speaks in the Bible it is in parable form, with representational words.

I also like that you notice that 1 Thes 4:17 mentions that we meet the Lord in the air. The air is a parable word in the Bible. It's meaning is heaven. We see this in the parable of the kingdom of heaven (Mat 13:31-32) in which the birds of the air lodge in branches. The birds are pictures of true believers and the term air is used to describe that they are of heaven.

When it comes to the notion of Millennial Reign, however, most people are not looking at 1 Thes 4:17 to get that theory. The Millennial Reign idea comes mostly from Revelation chapter 20. In that chapter an angel comes down from heaven and binds Satan. That angel (meaning messenger) is Jesus. He is the one who has the ability to bind Satan. This was accomplished when Jesus came to earth and died on the cross and rose again giving the Holy Spirit to create a new bunch of born again persons. That is why Chapter 20 says that there is a seal placed on Satan. The seal is the Holy Spirit. As long as the Holy Spirit is there he cannot deceive true believers from believing on Christ unto salvation. We find that when Christ comes to earth he binds Satan for a thousand years. While the thousand years mentioned is a parable word with a representational meaning, it seems that the verse is describing that time period following Christ's coming to the earth to go to the cross to give the Holy Spirit. Again, the Holy Spirit is what binds Satan so that he cannot deceive true believers. We also see thrones mentioned in Rev 20. This is because once a person is born again they are seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, ruling and reigning with him. They are reigning spiritually, not like you imagine an earthly monarch sitting on a throne giving out self-serving orders. Rather, even if they are of little consequence in the flesh, they are ruling in spiritual places. We find that those who take part in Christ's resurrection are blessed and holy and the second death has no power, meaning they have been given eternal life.

Ok I've had time to study over what you said on Revelation, chapter 20, and have added my comments:

Rev 20:1-21:1
Revelation 20

20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
(1) You said:
. In that chapter an angel comes down from heaven and binds Satan. That angel (meaning messenger) is Jesus. He is the one who has the ability to bind Satan. This was accomplished when Jesus came to earth and died on the cross and rose again giving the Holy Spirit to create a new bunch of born again persons
(2) I agree, you seem correct on that!


2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
(1) You said:
He is the one who has the ability to bind Satan. This was accomplished when Jesus came to earth and died on the cross and rose again giving the Holy Spirit to create a new bunch of born again persons
(2) My comment: I think you're right on that!

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
(2) My comment: His being loosed for a season, must refer to the battle of Armageddon (Revelation 20: 7-8)

(1) You said: That is why Chapter 20 says that there is a seal placed on Satan. The seal is the Holy Spirit. As long as the Holy( Spirit is there he cannot deceive true believers from believing on Christ unto salvation. We find that when Christ comes to earth he binds Satan for a thousand years
And you also said: it seems that the verse is describing that time period following Christ's coming to the earth to go to the cross to give the Holy Spirit
(2) My comment: Yes, I think you're right and have thought the same before - in that Satan isn't allowed to do any more than God allows him during that period. And in that his goals against humanity are greatly prevented through God's intervention, in that period.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(1) You said: . We also see thrones mentioned in Rev 20. This is because once a person is born again they are seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, ruling and reigning with him. They are reigning spiritually, not like you imagine an earthly monarch sitting on a throne giving out self-serving orders
(2) My comment: I agree, the scriptures portray God's people as ruling over others. And that they are God - the King's children, and therefore of the nobility of God's kingdom.
1 Cor 6:2-3
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
KJV

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
(2) My comment: I see the 2nd death, as referring to eternal hell.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
(2) my comment: They will gather to fight against Jerusalem

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


KJV

 

[MyrtleTrees]

Not to mention the fact that Jesus said that those of the church who overcome will rule the nations with Him (Rev.2:26), as well as the 144,000/Male Child (Rev.12:5) and the resurrected great tribulation saints (Rev.20:4)

I respect and agree with your concern about not trusting numerology above the scriptures that are more plain in what they are saying. But I see nothing wrong with assuming they may be relevant helps in illustrating the scriptures. It's true they aren't as easy to understand as the plainly worded scriptures. We are always to trust the scriptures that are plain, more than our interpretations of the more difficult scriptures. But God has allowed difficult-to-understand statements to be in the Bible. Especially in the subject of the prophetic scriptures. And since He purposely allowed it, I think it doesn't upset God to see ones trying to figure out what they may mean.

I'll also add, that even without discussing numerology, my views on the subjects of (1) the 144,000 as referring to the total number of saints to be in heaven, and (2) The Lord's return being followed by removing all remaining saints and punishing the unbelievers, and then destroying the earth and universe, would be the same anyhow. Since I feel I've seen proof of these things in the scriptures.