Not By Works

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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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No!

How in the world did you come to this wild conclusion? o_O
You say Romans 7 is not about the Christian. You say the believer has no business in it.
But Romans 7 is Paul speaking in 1st person present tense saying it is no longer him who sins but sin dwelling in his flesh - having become separated from his flesh he wars against it, following a different law than it does.
 
Feb 29, 2020
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You say Romans 7 is not about the Christian.
It’s not; because:

Romans 8:9
[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

If you are not in the flesh then the struggle of doing good in Romans 7 no longer affects the born again believer.

And this is made clear because Romans 7:5 says:

Romans 7:5
[5] For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

So since we are not in the flesh anymore, the motions of sin no longer work in our members.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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It’s not; because:

Romans 8:9
[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

If you are not in the flesh then the struggle of doing good in Romans 7 no longer affects the born again believer.

And this is made clear because Romans 7:5 says:

Romans 7:5
[5] For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

So since we are not in the flesh anymore, the motions of sin no longer work in our members.
So you say the man who no longer sins, who thanks God through Christ, who serves God with his mind, who is crucified to his flesh, no longer living after it, is not a Christian.

You say Paul is not a believer, that he was not born again when he wrote this letter.


Hard to believe you still don't recognize your problem.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,957
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This is what happens when a person believes salvation is a thing of works. When a person believes they have no sin.

They are able to say fine-sounding things, but when their doctrines are closely scrutinized and compared with scripture, errors are manifest.
 
May 23, 2020
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Probably refers to this:

John 3:3
Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Thank you!! Finally someone who knows it. This describes a state where one has received from above, not a “club” or title one got. The “kingdom of God” is actually the “reign of God” that one sees or understands when one has received the Spirit from above. Jesus goes on to talk about understanding and is surprised Nic does not “see” the reign of God, that is understand. He does not mention Heaven after death but the rule of God.

This is what I mean by complex. It is not discussing getting your “ticket for heaven” secured.
 
Jun 5, 2020
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It’s not; because:

Romans 8:9
[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

If you are not in the flesh then the struggle of doing good in Romans 7 no longer affects the born again believer.

And this is made clear because Romans 7:5 says:

Romans 7:5
[5] For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

So since we are not in the flesh anymore, the motions of sin no longer work in our members.
This is a distortion of what Paul wrote. You can't take one verse from one chapter and one verse from the preceding chapter and combine them in reverse order to create doctrine.

In Romans it clearly says that we are not free from the battle with sin even when we are born again. If you have received the Spirit of God you have the ability to resist the temptation of sin, but you can't just ignore it.

Romans 7:14-25, "We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin...

Romans 8:10-13, "But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live."

Clearly the struggle with sin is not over once we're born of the Spirit. We now have the ability to overcome our sinful nature, but it doesn't disappear until we die.

"
 
Feb 29, 2020
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You can't take one verse from one chapter and one verse from the preceding chapter and combine them in reverse order to create doctrine.
I am not creating doctrine. OSAS is a created doctrine; you should spend more time examining OSAS instead of me.

I’m just showing you the doctrine in the Bible concisely.
 
May 19, 2020
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I ask again. Where does Jesus say “only those born again will see beaven” or similar. “You must be born again” doesn’t mention Heaven and Jesus wasn’t thinking of Heaven primarily at that conversation




Read John 3

He was talking to Nicodemus....eleventhhour can vouch this scripture that I posted to you.

3..in reply Jesus declared,I tell you the truth no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.

We are born again....do you deny the word of God here?

BORN AGAIN WILL SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
I ask you once again do you deny that???
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
I ask again. Where does Jesus say “only those born again will see beaven” or similar. “You must be born again” doesn’t mention Heaven and Jesus wasn’t thinking of Heaven primarily at that conversation
eleventhhour can vouch this scripture that I posted to you.
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

Then we read......

"No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven"

Jesus “makes it clear that He can speak authoritatively about things in heaven, though no one else can.”

Who gains entry into this spiritual kingdom the one who has been born from above ... spiritually regenerated.


Wrong again Dorothy ... you prove yourself daily to be one of the much, much lesser opponents of the Gospel which is OSAS.

Your rebuttals are extremely weak for the most part you rely on "denial" as if your denial carries value.
 
May 23, 2020
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Read John 3

He was talking to Nicodemus....eleventhhour can vouch this scripture that I posted to you.

3..in reply Jesus declared,I tell you the truth no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.

We are born again....do you deny the word of God here?

BORN AGAIN WILL SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
I ask you once again do you deny that???
Posthuman supplies what you would or could not. It does NOT say that you quote which is why I asked you to quote it. You refused.

No one can see the REIGN of God unless He is born from above. Does not mention “born again Christians” as a type of person as you wrongly used it.

The Reign of God NOT HEAVEN. Does not say “see Heaven” but see the reigning of God. This does not give assurance of Heaven.
 
May 23, 2020
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3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

Then we read......

"No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven"

Jesus “makes it clear that He can speak authoritatively about things in heaven, though no one else can.”

Who gains entry into this spiritual kingdom the one who has been born from above ... spiritually regenerated.


Wrong again Dorothy ... you prove yourself daily to be one of the much, much lesser opponents of the Gospel which is OSAS.

Your rebuttals are extremely weak for the most part you rely on "denial" as if your denial carries value.
You are right in that he is speaking of the kingdom of God. He is not promising Heaven.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
You are right in that he is speaking of the kingdom of God. He is not promising Heaven.
He has actually stated that Heaven is secured for those that are born again.

One physical birth, one spiritual birth... both cannot be undone.

More denial of the words of Christ Jesus
 
May 23, 2020
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He has actually stated that Heaven is secured for those that are born again.

One physical birth, one spiritual birth... both cannot be undone.

More denial of the words of Christ Jesus
Where did he say “heaven is secured” anywhere anytime? Anyone can leave at anytime.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
Where did he say “heaven is secured” anywhere anytime? Anyone can leave at anytime.
I have made it very clear to you in another post that is not possible to walk away from our "justified" decree/status which comes from God.

I notice you skipped it.

Do you have anything of substance to offer?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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I have made it very clear to you in another post that is not possible to walk away from our "justified" decree/status which comes from God.

I notice you skipped it.

Do you have anything of substance to offer?
Scripture plainly states that those who depart were not one of us. i.e., they were not born again.

They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us,
they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
1 John 2:19