The truth about tongues: a DIVISIVE force in Christianity today

[biker]

And if you meant Jimmy Paige, he is considered and also an admitted warlock in the dark arts of Wicca. He has used translucent psych for many years to capture spirits. Aside from Jimi Hendrix, Paige and Clapton have been king dog of the guitar for years now. I have just flipped through the tons of pictures of him and you can see the spirits inside of him. Him and Robert Plant claim they wrote Stairway to Heaven in literally 5 minutes. Said something took a hold of their hand and they watched as the lyrics just appeared right before their unbelieving eyes.

But then again, in my late 20's to late 30's I was involved with Wicca, Paganism, and Satanism. It's very odd to see another form of churchism. They gathered on the Wheel of Years special days. Called the 4 corners, the elements, and gave homeage to the deities appointed to each season. And it was almost like going to a Godly Church how they conduct things. Until the Ceremony is over. Then it is a literal hedenistic fest of orgies, drugs, and fornications.

 

[Angela53510]

Angela I would love to hear what your opinion on tongues is, not the random babble but actual tongues.

I'd rather not give my opinion, because I would alienate almost everyone in this forum! LOL

I was a Pentecostal for 15 years, after God saved me, and I did something I thought was "speaking in tongues." But, I also read the Bible daily during those 15 years. I finally realized that what I was hearing in church, was not what I was reading in my bible. Of course, there are tongues in the Bible, I won't deny that. But to emphasize it every single church service, when the Bible is so deep and rich, and so much was just missing. It was like 15 years of Acts 2 and copy cat babbling in tongues.

I finally left, and went to a non-tongues talking church, with a pastor who preached the whole Bible. What a joy! I began to realize what I had been doing was not Biblical tongues, and neither was all the random babble, as you say, Blain.

However, we had a friend who was a tongues speaking evangelist. (He's not a friend anymore, since he stayed with us a while, and we found out he was hanging out in bars and casinos and gambling, drinking and sleeping with women, on the days he wasn't preaching (?).) But he did have one incident he talked about, before he backslid, while he was giving his testimony at a men's meeting. He said 4 words in an unknown tongue. Now, this man was from Fiji. He spoke English, Fijian and Hindi. At the end of the meeting, a man ran up from the back, and said, "Why didn't you tell me you spoke Armenian (the country)?" Of course, he told him he did not. The man held up a napkin, and he had written down the 4 words this evangelist said. In Armenian, these words were "Jesus Christ is Lord." He led the man to the Lord. Then over the next months, the man introduced his whole family to this evangelist, and 27 people were saved.

So, that sounds like true Biblical tongues. Something in a real language, which leads many people to Christ, that must be what Biblical tongues are about. HOWEVER, his incredible backsliding, years after this, also have me very confused. I guess the gifts of God are without repentance. But surely God knew this man would bring disrepute to the gospel? Or was this just God's timing for this family to be saved, and nothing to do with the evangelist?

I believe God is sovereign, and totally in control, so, God must have arranged this. And I have heard rumours of similar things. But very rarely. I also am not sure about 1 Cor. 13 saying tongues have ceased. I know they will, and certainly it seems to me that since what goes on in most charismatic churches has nothing to do with Biblical tongues, perhaps there are some rare exceptions, where are real language is spoken, and someone gets saved. But for the majority, my experience is that tongues have ceased, regardless of testimonies and anecdotal incidents.

Told you, I would be in trouble. The conservatives all hate me for mentioning an incident that probably was real tongues, but the Pentecostals/charismatics all hate me because I do not believe their "prayer language" nor all the useless babbling is biblical. It's something I am not dogmatic on, yet, at least! I would love to read a book by Gordon Fee showing me how tongues are today, but then again, I still might not agree!

Finally, I wish this issue was not so divisive. I know the Oneness Pentecostals are in part responsible for this, with their nonsense about if you don't speak in tongues, you are not saved. I just don't find that anywhere in my Bible, but I sure do find tongues being left behind by the epistles from Galatians through Revelation. Surely if it was that important, it would be mentioned again in some of those books? (excluding 1 Cor, mainly). And even 1 Cor is about big problems in the church, not something to get happy about!

Again, sanctification or discipleship and spiritual formation is what the NT is about, and I honestly believe tongues inhibit people from growing, cause they get stuck on it, instead of digging deeper into the path God wants us to go. If people read the Bible over yearly, they would probably let go of tongues as the be all and end all, just like God was able to show me simply by reading 3 chapters of the OT and 1 of the NT daily. The church has fallen down in the importance of spiritual disciplines, which the gifts are not. Spiritual disciplines are woven through the entire NT in every page. So, again, why do people get stuck on a phenomena that is so minor and secondary? Languages announced the birth of the church. The Holy Spirit came down with power. And if speaking in tongues is so important, why don't people have flames of fire over their heads when they speak in tongues like Acts 2 says?

 

[Angela53510]

Actually that is not true. Please do some research on it before making such a sweeping generalization.

Not meaning to be insulting, but this whole Pink Floyd thing is getting beyond silly.

You simply wrote an opinion piece with no reason other than your own opinion. You might be or have been a pro musician, but one does not have to be such to gain a better understanding.

Perhaps you need to get the name of the group correct. Led Zepplin, an English group wrote Stairway to Heaven. Pink Floyd was also English, but much more esoteric, and hardly became mainstream, except for maybe the Wall. I grew up in that era, and I honestly don't know much about Pink Floyd, but I know the first 3 Led Zepplin LPs well.

Of course it is an opinion. But, being a musician I hung around musicians and heard lots of things that never were made public. But they could well have been more rumour and innuendo. Really, not sure why KJV1611 even brought it up. Other than the Bob Larson nonsense 40 years ago. Certainly, it has nothing to do with a Biblical discussion of tongues!

 

[lenna]

My apologies for saying the link was not there. I confess I have never seen such a long sentence with an embedded link, but that is on me.

However, a link to some iffy Pentecostal site, (which is exactly what I said in my last posts) is simply not a serious source. I want to see the quote within the actual manuscript, or some kind of comparison to the Greek. Plus, they really didn't quote any reputable source. Sadly, some fly by night website from someone with a very definite viewpoint on tongues is simply not going to convince me of anything, although it many confirm your biases.

And I did dig deeper and find a link to an actual book written by a Greek scholar, which was clear that none of the Church Fathers were referring to themselves, or tongues being spoken in their time, but as a part of the book of Acts, and in other places like 1 Cor. I don't think anyone on this thread disagrees that some kind of language was used in the book of Acts, although someone put forward an interesting theory about it being just Aramaic and Greek that was spoken on the day of Pentecost. If that was true, why would anyone be excited about the normal empire languages, which everyone used being the languages? But, nice to read a different theory, even if it is not right!

Apologies accepted no problem. I'm not Pentecostal and I think you might have a personal opinion with regards to calling the site 'iffy'. I actually wrote them earlier and asked them if they could supply the source for their quotes so we'll see what happens there I guess. In this case I agree they should supply a source and didn't think of it at the time.

In the meantime, I have looked up further opinions regarding the substance of church fathers (early church fathers) giving note to further speaking in tongues past the time of the disciples.

Thousands, actually millions, of people have a definite viewpoint on tongues so that is hardly proof of the site being fly by night but of course you are free to think so. People on here have very definite views as well pro and con.

In my searching around the web, I will state that certain opinions are without doubt very prejudicial and actually disregard some of what scripture plainly states. In fact I would have no problem stating there is actual exaggeration in some cases in their haste to disprove any modern used of tongues.

I would agree about Acts but find no evidence the languages were only Aramaic and Greek. That does not even make sense.

So I'll see if that site answers me and I will also continue with regards to early church fathers etc.

 

[Angela53510]

Did you ever wonder why Sammy Paige bought Aliester Crowleys old house?

I never wondered, because I know that Jimmy Paige was a Satanist just like Crowley. The whole thing is just creepy, really. I serve Jesus Christ, and I have renounced my past, over 40 years ago.

 

[lenna]

Perhaps you need to get the name of the group correct. Led Zepplin, an English group wrote Stairway to Heaven. Pink Floyd was also English, but much more esoteric, and hardly became mainstream, except for maybe the Wall. I grew up in that era, and I honestly don't know much about Pink Floyd, but I know the first 3 Led Zepplin LPs well.

Of course it is an opinion. But, being a musician I hung around musicians and heard lots of things that never were made public. But they could well have been more rumour and innuendo. Really, not sure why KJV1611 even brought it up. Other than the Bob Larson nonsense 40 years ago. Certainly, it has nothing to do with a Biblical discussion of tongues!

Should have known that. Doesn't change the song though. I was never really a fan and certainly am not now.

KJV was trying to say that the song was tongues in that it had a hidden message. Whether or not a person thinks modern tongues are valid I can't see how that even begins to make sense.

 

[Dino246]

The plain parables without the hidden understanding?

No; the plain TEXT, which is what I wrote.

There is a whole series of parables in Luke and Mark 9 (two witnesses). used to teach us how to walk by faith and not after what the eyes see the temporal .

Neither Mark 9 nor Luke 9 contain parables; it is all plain teaching.

If they do not teach us how to walk by faith .Then what do they teach ?

They aren't parables.

Jesus needed to take a class in English grammar ?

No, but you could learn quite a bit if you did.

 

[Dino246]

My head is spinning with rhetorical responses here.

Here is a parable instead though

There was a fox who saw a grape tree hanging over a ledge and it was filled with ripe and beautiful grapes. She trotted over to it and tried to reach some but she could not because they were out of her reach. She tried and tried and tried but no matter how much she tried, she could not reach them.

She sat down and thought about it and decided she did not actually want them after all. So, with a toss of her head and a snort, she continued past them while saying out loud 'Who cares about those grapes. I don't even want them.'

There is a common message in that little story that illustrates something about human character. Jesus did not invent parables and the word 'parable' is from a Greek word meaning 'comparison'.

I find nothing in your personal parables to compare to any teaching that benefits the reader. Just thought you should know.

Respectfully, what you shared here is a fable, not a parable. Parables use human actors; fables use non-human actors.

 

[Dino246]

Prophesying is speaking in tongues. Spread the new tongue the gospel. He sends us out two by two . Many prophets on this message sharing forum . Some offer unknown false. . prophecy, to anybody .

What you share here is "unknown" and "false" because it is not consistent with Scripture.

 

[Dino246]

I don’t deny that one of the manifestations of the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues, I do it on this forum ALL THE TIME and people think I’m a lunatic.

You even think I’m a lunatic lol. An unknown tongue means just that, UNKOWN... nobody knows that tongue because it IS NOT a spoken language.

Every case of "tongues" in Scripture involved speaking. What you describe is just figurative language, and has nothing to do with the spiritual gift described in 1 Corinthians.

 

[Blain]

I'd rather not give my opinion, because I would alienate almost everyone in this forum! LOL

I was a Pentecostal for 15 years, after God saved me, and I did something I thought was "speaking in tongues." But, I also read the Bible daily during those 15 years. I finally realized that what I was hearing in church, was not what I was reading in my bible. Of course, there are tongues in the Bible, I won't deny that. But to emphasize it every single church service, when the Bible is so deep and rich, and so much was just missing. It was like 15 years of Acts 2 and copy cat babbling in tongues.

I finally left, and went to a non-tongues talking church, with a pastor who preached the whole Bible. What a joy! I began to realize what I had been doing was not Biblical tongues, and neither was all the random babble, as you say, Blain.

However, we had a friend who was a tongues speaking evangelist. (He's not a friend anymore, since he stayed with us a while, and we found out he was hanging out in bars and casinos and gambling, drinking and sleeping with women, on the days he wasn't preaching (?).) But he did have one incident he talked about, before he backslid, while he was giving his testimony at a men's meeting. He said 4 words in an unknown tongue. Now, this man was from Fiji. He spoke English, Fijian and Hindi. At the end of the meeting, a man ran up from the back, and said, "Why didn't you tell me you spoke Armenian (the country)?" Of course, he told him he did not. The man held up a napkin, and he had written down the 4 words this evangelist said. In Armenian, these words were "Jesus Christ is Lord." He led the man to the Lord. Then over the next months, the man introduced his whole family to this evangelist, and 27 people were saved.

So, that sounds like true Biblical tongues. Something in a real language, which leads many people to Christ, that must be what Biblical tongues are about. HOWEVER, his incredible backsliding, years after this, also have me very confused. I guess the gifts of God are without repentance. But surely God knew this man would bring disrepute to the gospel? Or was this just God's timing for this family to be saved, and nothing to do with the evangelist?

I believe God is sovereign, and totally in control, so, God must have arranged this. And I have heard rumours of similar things. But very rarely. I also am not sure about 1 Cor. 13 saying tongues have ceased. I know they will, and certainly it seems to me that since what goes on in most charismatic churches has nothing to do with Biblical tongues, perhaps there are some rare exceptions, where are real language is spoken, and someone gets saved. But for the majority, my experience is that tongues have ceased, regardless of testimonies and anecdotal incidents.

Told you, I would be in trouble. The conservatives all hate me for mentioning an incident that probably was real tongues, but the Pentecostals/charismatics all hate me because I do not believe their "prayer language" nor all the useless babbling is biblical. It's something I am not dogmatic on, yet, at least! I would love to read a book by Gordon Fee showing me how tongues are today, but then again, I still might not agree!

Finally, I wish this issue was not so divisive. I know the Oneness Pentecostals are in part responsible for this, with their nonsense about if you don't speak in tongues, you are not saved. I just don't find that anywhere in my Bible, but I sure do find tongues being left behind by the epistles from Galatians through Revelation. Surely if it was that important, it would be mentioned again in some of those books? (excluding 1 Cor, mainly). And even 1 Cor is about big problems in the church, not something to get happy about!

Again, sanctification or discipleship and spiritual formation is what the NT is about, and I honestly believe tongues inhibit people from growing, cause they get stuck on it, instead of digging deeper into the path God wants us to go. If people read the Bible over yearly, they would probably let go of tongues as the be all and end all, just like God was able to show me simply by reading 3 chapters of the OT and 1 of the NT daily. The church has fallen down in the importance of spiritual disciplines, which the gifts are not. Spiritual disciplines are woven through the entire NT in every page. So, again, why do people get stuck on a phenomena that is so minor and secondary? Languages announced the birth of the church. The Holy Spirit came down with power. And if speaking in tongues is so important, why don't people have flames of fire over their heads when they speak in tongues like Acts 2 says?

Man Angela once again a home run. I am always amazed at your understanding and I can feel the love and hunger for his word in you it truly is something I hope to have one day.
That friend of yours who backslide sounds like he was being used by God greatly, of course him backsliding may seem confusing but there is no such thing as accidents either. I know that sometimes we can go on paths in our lives that are not where God wants us to go and sometimes the most humbling and profound way of learning a lesson is though suffering. Perhaps he backslid and God was also using this to help him reach the point where he would get back on the path he was meant to be on?

And yeah I have been to Pentecopstal churches where they would speak that babble and they laid their hands on me as well which made me uncomfortable, I think people just don't understand what tongues is and what it is for and as I have said in other threads tonbues is a much less common gift and I think this is because people vastly misunderstand the use and purpose of it.
God won't give us a gift that we would misuse in that way and people can be to reliant on seeking such things instead of seeking his kingdom first. It is as you said sanctification discipleship and spiritual formation, If you become to invested in the gifts themselves which are tools then you forget to use that tool for the purpose it was given. If you give a man who is to help build a house a hammer but he doesn't use it then the building cannot be finnished.

Any gifts we recieve or desire will be given if we seek his kingdom first

 

[Blain]

I'd rather not give my opinion, because I would alienate almost everyone in this forum! LOL

I was a Pentecostal for 15 years, after God saved me, and I did something I thought was "speaking in tongues." But, I also read the Bible daily during those 15 years. I finally realized that what I was hearing in church, was not what I was reading in my bible. Of course, there are tongues in the Bible, I won't deny that. But to emphasize it every single church service, when the Bible is so deep and rich, and so much was just missing. It was like 15 years of Acts 2 and copy cat babbling in tongues.

I finally left, and went to a non-tongues talking church, with a pastor who preached the whole Bible. What a joy! I began to realize what I had been doing was not Biblical tongues, and neither was all the random babble, as you say, Blain.

However, we had a friend who was a tongues speaking evangelist. (He's not a friend anymore, since he stayed with us a while, and we found out he was hanging out in bars and casinos and gambling, drinking and sleeping with women, on the days he wasn't preaching (?).) But he did have one incident he talked about, before he backslid, while he was giving his testimony at a men's meeting. He said 4 words in an unknown tongue. Now, this man was from Fiji. He spoke English, Fijian and Hindi. At the end of the meeting, a man ran up from the back, and said, "Why didn't you tell me you spoke Armenian (the country)?" Of course, he told him he did not. The man held up a napkin, and he had written down the 4 words this evangelist said. In Armenian, these words were "Jesus Christ is Lord." He led the man to the Lord. Then over the next months, the man introduced his whole family to this evangelist, and 27 people were saved.

So, that sounds like true Biblical tongues. Something in a real language, which leads many people to Christ, that must be what Biblical tongues are about. HOWEVER, his incredible backsliding, years after this, also have me very confused. I guess the gifts of God are without repentance. But surely God knew this man would bring disrepute to the gospel? Or was this just God's timing for this family to be saved, and nothing to do with the evangelist?

I believe God is sovereign, and totally in control, so, God must have arranged this. And I have heard rumours of similar things. But very rarely. I also am not sure about 1 Cor. 13 saying tongues have ceased. I know they will, and certainly it seems to me that since what goes on in most charismatic churches has nothing to do with Biblical tongues, perhaps there are some rare exceptions, where are real language is spoken, and someone gets saved. But for the majority, my experience is that tongues have ceased, regardless of testimonies and anecdotal incidents.

Told you, I would be in trouble. The conservatives all hate me for mentioning an incident that probably was real tongues, but the Pentecostals/charismatics all hate me because I do not believe their "prayer language" nor all the useless babbling is biblical. It's something I am not dogmatic on, yet, at least! I would love to read a book by Gordon Fee showing me how tongues are today, but then again, I still might not agree!

Finally, I wish this issue was not so divisive. I know the Oneness Pentecostals are in part responsible for this, with their nonsense about if you don't speak in tongues, you are not saved. I just don't find that anywhere in my Bible, but I sure do find tongues being left behind by the epistles from Galatians through Revelation. Surely if it was that important, it would be mentioned again in some of those books? (excluding 1 Cor, mainly). And even 1 Cor is about big problems in the church, not something to get happy about!

Again, sanctification or discipleship and spiritual formation is what the NT is about, and I honestly believe tongues inhibit people from growing, cause they get stuck on it, instead of digging deeper into the path God wants us to go. If people read the Bible over yearly, they would probably let go of tongues as the be all and end all, just like God was able to show me simply by reading 3 chapters of the OT and 1 of the NT daily. The church has fallen down in the importance of spiritual disciplines, which the gifts are not. Spiritual disciplines are woven through the entire NT in every page. So, again, why do people get stuck on a phenomena that is so minor and secondary? Languages announced the birth of the church. The Holy Spirit came down with power. And if speaking in tongues is so important, why don't people have flames of fire over their heads when they speak in tongues like Acts 2 says?

Also for the record if you stir up the pot because you give your insight or opinion I am all for it I think the church needs a good stirring to wake up

 

[lenna]

Respectfully, what you shared here is a fable, not a parable. Parables use human actors; fables use non-human actors.

Sorry, but that is a parable according to the true meaning of a parable. Parables can use whatever they want. I didn't make it up although I did use my own words in relating it. If you can't sleep over it though, just make a big x on my post LOL!

 

[Washed]

God won't give us a gift that we would misuse in that way...

The Corinthians had the "gift" of tongues and they were misusing it greatly. That's why Paul had to correct them.

 

[Blain]

The Corinthians had the "gift" of tongues and they were misusing it greatly. That's why Paul had to correct them.

Yes but that also was in the time tongues was really alive and active it is rarely seen nowaydays. Back then the purpose of tongues was greatly needed the church was being built more and more people were being saved nowadays the church is not really expanding the gifts are faked more than they are really used the church unlike back then is not alive or awake.

Soa gift such as tongues is not needed near as much as it was back then it is faked so much that the gift seems obsolete, If what I do is tongues when I intercede for someone it is not done in public it is only done in private with him. Most people spout nonesense in public and when I intercede for someone I feel the spirit in it I can tell there is actual power in it when the many fake tongues I encountered were spoken there nothing in their words.
So I think God only gives the gift to those he knows will use it for it's purpose being a much more uncommon gift it would not be fitting to give it to that many people as back then because the mission and the chburch has changed we as a body are drastically divided and have forgotten what it means to be a Christian and the purpose of it as well.

 

[Scribe]

I don't know about the US, but in Canada, Pentecostals attend "Bible Schools" not seminaries. I did a certificate in Pentecostal theology when I was a young Christian, and it was the equivalent of a Bible School certificate. Of course, someone attending a seminary and getting their MDIv is a different story. We had some of those people in my Baptist seminary. They realized they were not getting essentials in Bible school, and came and did the work, learned Greek and Hebrew and Hermeneutics. But sadly, those are the exception. Like I said, Gordon Fee is an outstanding Pentecostal Greek scholar. I disagree with him on some issues, but his exegesis is excellent. (I also disagreed on occasion with my Greek professor, another of the top scholar/translators in the world - Bill Mounce. And he was ok with me disagreeing, as long as I had my facts straight about the Greek!) No brainwashing to a certain viewpoint in higher academics.

But NOT three years of Greek, in most schools, except the bigger ones, where you are specializing in Greek or Hebrew. And unfortunately, many MDiv programs have been knocked down from 91 hours to 72 hours, with only one or no language credits. The theory is that a normal pastor doesn't need all that language or theory. I find it dreadful that the traditions of actually reading the Bible are being dummied down in the only institutions set up to rigorously teach these important things about how to correctly interpret the Bible, which does require a solid knowledge of the original languages, even for a pastor in a small town somewhere.

The Assemblies of God has excellent seminaries and also Global University which is being used world wide and producing excellently trained theologians offering Masters and Doctorate degrees. I am using the Global University and I am on track for three years of Greek before I complete my requirements. Some other pentecostal theologians you will probably run across in bibliographies are William and Robert Menzies, Stanley Horton, Robert Stronstad. There are others and more and more as the pentecostal movement continues to grow world wide. Robert Stronstad is a giant and I have been very impressed with his works on Lucan Pneumatology.

 

[Scribe]

Read almost any of garee's posts. They are all that way.

I have no doubt of his faith in God, but his posts are for the most part incomprehensible.

garee-speak

 

[Angela53510]

The Assemblies of God has excellent seminaries and also Global University which is being used world wide and producing excellently trained theologians offering Masters and Doctorate degrees. I am using the Global University and I am on track for three years of Greek before I complete my requirements. Some other pentecostal theologians you will probably run across in bibliographies are William and Robert Menzies, Stanley Horton, Robert Stronstad. There are others and more and more as the pentecostal movement continues to grow world wide. Robert Stronstad is a giant and I have been very impressed with his works on Lucan Pneumatology.

Oh, that is good to know. Maybe things have changed in Canada since I was part of the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada, a sister denomination to the AoG? I am not familiar with most of the scholars, but Gordon Fee was required reading in many of my Baptist courses. We also read from a variety of authors, including Catholic. That surprised me most! What I learned from them. Are you working on a DMin or PhD? I am working on a PhD online, but I have had to take a break, because my body is not cooperating with me, especially the new deformities in my hands. I appreciate this information.

 

[Kavik]

An unknown tongue means just that, UNKOWN.

You do realize "unknown" was added to the text right? What the KJV has as "unknown tongue" should be read simply as "language".
The inclusion of "unknown" in conjunction with the word "tongues" has a pretty interesting history.

 

[Blain]

Oh, that is good to know. Maybe things have changed in Canada since I was part of the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada, a sister denomination to the AoG? I am not familiar with most of the scholars, but Gordon Fee was required reading in many of my Baptist courses. We also read from a variety of authors, including Catholic. That surprised me most! What I learned from them. Are you working on a DMin or PhD? I am working on a PhD online, but I have had to take a break, because my body is not cooperating with me, especially the new deformities in my hands. I appreciate this information.

I would not have the mental ability for a phd but I am a bit jealous you guys have been able to go to seminars like that, my mind is only able to take in a certain amount of information before it begins to shut down but I still have that hunger of learning.