We experience a death to our old sin nature once we are baptized into Christ.

[Peterlag]

14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do, I do not do. But what I hate, I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I admit that the law is good. 17In that case, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want to do. Instead, I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do. 20And if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21So this is the principle I have discovered: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s law. 23But I see another law at work in my body, warring against the law of my mind and holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me.b

24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with my mind I serve the law of God, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Romans 7

I'm going to stick with what Paul states. No one is sinless on the earth, Christian or not. We have a will and we have choices to make.
Further, John states you are liar if you think you have no sin or do not sin. Now why would he say that if a Christian does not ever sin or thinks they have somehow been perfected in the flesh?

We are going to be given new bodies and these old bodies are going to be done away with. And for the record, I am not making an argument for continuing in sin or practicing sin or sinning on purpose with the thought you just ask forgiveness after the fact. I am, however, making an argument for what scripture actually states and not some unbiblical teaching that states we are perfected in our flesh because we most certainly are not.

You cannot apply spiritual principals to something that is dead.

What Paul talks about in the seventh chapter of Romans is what occurs to the believer who still thinks the Law applies to them. They end up spiritually dying by the commandment and realize that the commandment does not produce life. The war is with their flesh because they are still believing the Law has power over them. In the eighth chapter of Romans is where it explains how we overcome this whole issue by living in the spirit and being dead to the Law. We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands.

 

[Peterlag]

Paul on Romans 7-not a bio

What Paul talks about in the seventh chapter of Romans is what occurs to the believer who still thinks the Law applies to them. They end up spiritually dying by the commandment and realize that the commandment does not produce life. The war is with their flesh because they are still believing the Law has power over them. In the eighth chapter of Romans is where it explains how we overcome this whole issue by living in the spirit and being dead to the Law. We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands.

 

[Peterlag]

Not at all.

Paul is showing that a man in the flesh cannot do the good that he wants to do.

But Christians (true ones) are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit (Romans 8:9).

Bingo

 

[Peterlag]

Still no sin nature mentioned. No one in the Bible mentioned it as the concept had not been invented. That death came to the world through Adam is not in dispute. That all died because of their choice is not in dispute. That we have an inborn sin nature is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible. (Please don't quote me how David's mother sinned when David was conceived.)

If the apostle Paul taught that we do experience a death to our old sin nature once we are baptized into Christ, and that it’s dead and gone and therefore we are dead to sin? Then where did this idea come from that we are still alive to sin? Could it have come from these guys...

The concept of the original sin was first alluded to in the second century by Irenaeus, (Bishop of Lyon) who was working for the Catholics and not for the apostle Paul. Some two hundred years later another church father who went by the name of Augustine, (Bishop of Hippo) whose writings shaped and developed the doctrine of sin as he considered that humanity shared in Adam's sin. Augustine's formulation of the original sin after the year of 412 was popular among protestant reformer's such as Martin Luther and John Calvin, who equated the original sin with a hurtful desire meaning that it persisted even after baptism and therefore completely destroyed the freedom to do good. At first Augustine, said that free will was weakened, but not destroyed by the original sin. But after the year of 412 this concept changed to a loss of free will except to sin, and it's this Augustine's concept that influenced the development of the western church and western philosophy and indirectly all of western Christianity.

 

[Peterlag]

When Paul use the term sin, many times, it refers to noun and not a verb

If the apostle Paul taught that we do experience a death to our old sin nature once we are baptized into Christ, and that it’s dead and gone and therefore we are dead to sin? Then where did this idea come from that we are still alive to sin? Could it have come from these guys...

The concept of the original sin was first alluded to in the second century by Irenaeus, (Bishop of Lyon) who was working for the Catholics and not for the apostle Paul. Some two hundred years later another church father who went by the name of Augustine, (Bishop of Hippo) whose writings shaped and developed the doctrine of sin as he considered that humanity shared in Adam's sin. Augustine's formulation of the original sin after the year of 412 was popular among protestant reformer's such as Martin Luther and John Calvin, who equated the original sin with a hurtful desire meaning that it persisted even after baptism and therefore completely destroyed the freedom to do good. At first Augustine, said that free will was weakened, but not destroyed by the original sin. But after the year of 412 this concept changed to a loss of free will except to sin, and it's this Augustine's concept that influenced the development of the western church and western philosophy and indirectly all of western Christianity.

 

[Peterlag]

Isn't it beautiful that everything we do in life is based upon Yay/Nay.

Do I want to get out of bed today?
Do I want to wear this?
Do I want to eat this?
Do I want to go to work?
Do I want to put fuel into the vehicle?

Sometimes we are forced to do things we don't want to (like putting fuel into our vehicle or go to work).

And then on the flip side is morality between right and wrong.

Should I say something to offend this person? Odd how we never ask this first, but just say it and realize we just offended them.
Should I look at this beautiful woman and imagine things with her? Typically, we see her, start to think and then realize we are doing wrong.

To me, it's strange how common things like what to eat we are good at deciding before hand what to choose.
But when we sin, we sin and then realize we ignored the part where we could have chosen "no" before committing the sin.

If we could get our morality on the same pattern as basic life situations, we would be better off.
This is why there is always a "WAR" within us as Believers!

1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Chapter 7 is present tense. If it's not then salvation is by works & every failure in your flesh, every idle thought, everything that falls short of the perfect glory of God damns you and Christ died for nothing.

Romans 7 is talking about how to live our lives in light of the salvation we receive by faith.

Romans 6:

11 - instruction to logically conclude (reckon) we are dead to sin and alive unto God through the Lord Jesus Christ.

12 - Instruction to let not sin reign (exercise power over) in your body

13 - Instruction to yield ourselves to God ... don't yield to sin


These are instructions as to how we are to live in light of the salvation we have received by faith and in light of the new man God created within at the time we were born again.

God doesn't just tell us we are saved by faith ... He gives us the instruction needed in order to live in light of what we have received.

And this is not "salvation by works" ... it is instruction ... bringing us from justified by faith through the Lord Jesus Christ (Rom 5) to don't yield to sin but yield to God because we have been delivered from sin (Rom 6) to it is only in the Lord Jesus Christ that we are delivered from sin (Rom 7) to no condemnation in Christ Jesus as we walk in the new man ... led by the Spirit of God (Rom 8).

And, yes, sometimes we do "fall short of the perfect glory of God" but our falling short does not damn us, nor does it mean that Christ died for nothing. It just means that we are still growing and maturing as God works within us.

In Romans 6, God doesn't tell us that sin is dead. God tells us that we are dead to sin. Sin is alive in this present evil world and we have been delivered from this present evil world through faith in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[Peterlag]

Yes ... a new creation in Christ. And Scripture tells us that until we mature to full age, we are babes in Christ. And that maturing process takes time ... we don't just go from babe to full maturity.

In this process of growing up in Christ, God works within us, removing those things which are not beneficial to us. However, at times we continue in our old habit patterns and we do not reckon ourselves dead to sin.

It is not until we are clothed upon with our house made in heaven (2 Cor 5:2) that we are free from this earthen vessel which holds God's magnificent treasure.

Here are some verses which speak of the milk of the Word whereby we grow ...

1 Corinthians 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

Hebrews 5:12-13 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

1 Peter 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby


Here are some verses which speak of our maturing ...

1 Corinthians 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect [mature, full age - not "perfect" as in sinless]: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

Ephesians 4:11-16 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man [mature, full age], unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive

Philippians 3:13-15 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect [mature, full age], be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age [same Greek word as in 1 Co 2:6, Phil 3:15], even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

James 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man [again, mature, full age], and able also to bridle the whole body.



The point is, once we are born again, we begin as spiritual infants and we mature to adult. And as long as we live on this earth in these bodies, we will see through a glass darkly (1 Cor 13:12).

1 John 3:2 tells us Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

God, in His great benevolence, tells us we are His children now (and we are His children now), but we will not be fully conformed to the image of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ until He appears. Until then, we are maturing. And no matter how spiritually mature we are, we are susceptible to being drawn away from who we are in Christ.

It’s not in the process of becoming new because it’s already as pure and perfect as it can be.

1 Corinthians 6:17
But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

Ephesians 4:24
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

1 John 4:17
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Romans 6:5-6
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

This is not something that has yet to happen or has to happen over and over. It’s a done deal because in our new, born-again spirit, we are dead to sin. And so our sin nature is dead and gone, but it left behind a body that has a carnal mind, and therefore it will still function as programmed until we reprogram it. It's what the New Testament calls the "renewed mind" when our lives are transformed by the process of reprogramming our thoughts.

 

[Peterlag]

I am not sure exactly what you are trying to communicate, however I will agree that believers can live a life of victory over the things they used to do that they were in bondage to. They can be so set free that they would be as tempted to like dirt out of the corner of a public bathroom floor than to do the things they used to do. They can live is such dominion over the deeds of the flesh that they were once in bondage to that things that used to tempt them are disgusting to them today. YES!!!! When the Son sets you free you are free indeed!

I'm trying to communicate that the bible is to bring us to the point of walking by the spirit.

 

[Peterlag]

The fact that Paul says "and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh" means that "the flesh" (the old Adamic sin nature) has not been eradicated, and can influence the Christian if he or she does not walk in the Spirit.

I agree.

 

[Peterlag]

I am most likely more familiar with that verse and corresponding verses than are you.

IN Christ is the key. This flesh will pass away and is not without the ability to sin. Hence we are warned that the devil seeks those to devour and Jesus warned us mulitple times to take care and not be deceived.

All things are new in our Savior, but I don't know about you, when I woke up this morning? I wasn't new. A little worn around the edges I was.

I do wonder why a guy like you would think you might be more familiar with any verse more than me.

 

[Peterlag]

This is getting silly. When He found you.. before saved and after.. hello the flesh was never touched. So we put on the NEW man which after God IS created in righteousness and true holiness. That new man can't sin. Paul said... its no longer I that do it but the sin living in me. That flesh wanted to sin the day before you were saved and wanted to sin the day after. YOU have a free choice. But the battle is still there.

I guess its which one you wish to identify with. Before you were saved.. no one was forcing you to sin. Satan can not go against your will.. God can't go against your will. So.. take your eyes off flesh.. keep it on HIM! Stop seeing SIN.. keep your eyes on HIM!

It works for me.

 

[Peterlag]

Actually, many of us here are talking about the same concepts, but using different words.

Our spirit is the new man, and it has been reborn and it always believes the Word and wants to follow God.

Our body is the old man, it is dead, it still has the sin nature, and wants to sin.

The key is to renew our mind, and whichever side, the mind sides with, will win.

Put very well. I like that. The spirit is our new man.

 

[Peterlag]

I don't think it's silly. I think this is good discussion.

One of my favorite verses is Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Putting on the Lord Jesus Christ is the only way I know of to successfully overcome the lusts of the flesh.

Bingo.

 

[Peterlag]

Paul gives us an example by telling how it works for him.

In Romans 7:15 to 20 Paul explains he does what he does not choose to do. He chooses to be righteous as God made him righteous but his nature takes over and he still sins, but his will is to not sin.

What Paul talks about in the seventh chapter of Romans is what occurs to the believer who still thinks the Law applies to them. They end up spiritually dying by the commandment and realize that the commandment does not produce life. The war is with their flesh because they are still believing the Law has power over them. In the eighth chapter of Romans is where it explains how we overcome this whole issue by living in the spirit and being dead to the Law. We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

This is not something that has yet to happen or has to happen over and over. It’s a done deal because in our new, born-again spirit, we are dead to sin.

Right. And that is why I said it is a maturing process we go through.

And so our sin nature is dead and gone, but it left behind a body that has a carnal mind, and therefore it will still function as programmed until we reprogram it. It's what the New Testament calls the "renewed mind" when our lives are transformed by the process of reprogramming our thoughts.

Again, the maturing process which continues the whole of this lifetime.

No matter how spiritually mature we become, in this lifetime we will always see through a glass darkly (1 Cor 13:12). 1 John 3:2 tells us it does not yet appear what we shall be. Even knowing that we have this new man within, we do not know what we shall be.

Have you ever studied the arrabōn (the earnest of the Spirit)?

2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest [Greek arrabōn] of the Spirit in our hearts.

2 Corinthians 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest [Greek arrabōn] of the Spirit.

Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest [Greek arrabōn] of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

728 arrhabṓn – properly, an installment; a deposit ("down-payment") which guarantees the balance (the full purchase-price).​

​

728 /arrhabṓn ("down-payment pledge") is the regular term in NT times for "earnest-money," i.e. advance-payment that guarantees the rest will be given. 728 (arrhabṓn) then represents full security backed by the purchaser who supplies sufficient proof they will fulfill the entire pledge (promise).​

​

HELPS Word-studies​

 

[Peterlag]

it's all present tense, first person.

not past tense.
not 3rd person.

there's really only one honest way to read it. it's written exactly like he's talking about himself in the here and now when he wrote it. not about someone else 'before' -- and he puts it after he spends a chapter informing us about 15 times that by joining with Christ we have died, past tense, completed action. and he explains that because he has died to sin through the Spirit, even tho his flesh still struggles, it's not him, because he is no longer living after the flesh. from this he draws the conclusion that there is no more condemnation for us in Christ, because tho the flesh has sin, the spirit does not, and the Spirit is become for us life and freedom.

Romans 8 exists because of the facts of Romans 7, not despite them, and Romans 7 exists because of the facts of Romans 6. it must be this way because of the facts of Romans 1-5.

You are Brilliant.

 

[DorothyMae]

If the apostle Paul taught that we do experience a death to our old sin nature once we are baptized into Christ, and that it’s dead and gone and therefore we are dead to sin? Then where did this idea come from that we are still alive to sin? Could it have come from these guys...

Paul never used the term "sin nature" because the concept had not been invented. We can have a sinful nature because of sinning. But we are not born with a sin nature as the theology teaches and Paul did not say we were. We can examine in detail Pauls writing of Adam.

The concept of the original sin was first alluded to in the second century by Irenaeus, (Bishop of Lyon) who was working for the Catholics and not for the apostle Paul. Some two hundred years later another church father who went by the name of Augustine, (Bishop of Hippo) whose writings shaped and developed the doctrine of sin as he considered that humanity shared in Adam's sin. Augustine's formulation of the original sin after the year of 412 was popular among protestant reformer's such as Martin Luther and John Calvin, who equated the original sin with a hurtful desire meaning that it persisted even after baptism and therefore completely destroyed the freedom to do good. At first Augustine, said that free will was weakened, but not destroyed by the original sin. But after the year of 412 this concept changed to a loss of free will except to sin, and it's this Augustine's concept that influenced the development of the western church and western philosophy and indirectly all of western Christianity.

Thank you for the above very full description. That is even more than I knew and I appreciate the increase of information supplied by you. It does demonstrate that no New Testament writer had "sin nature" as currently understood in mind and neither did any Old Testament writer.

What Paul wrote was the sin entered the world through Adam. He did not say sin entered mankind in the form of a nature. This is an important distinction. We live in a fallen world. The one who sins is a sinner. We are not born sinners but we do become sinners as we continue to choose sin affecting our character quite deeply which is sometimes called "nature" but really is character. Some do not make that distinction and it is a loss of understanding if one does. Nature is what we are born with.

Character is what we build or make ourselves to be over the course of many many choices. We have sinful characters as a result of choosing sin. After a time, it is who we are. Christ came to free us from who we have made ourselves to be by shedding his blood. THis, to me, is more powerful than sometime born in us. We can be free from that which we chose to do which as all of us know is hard to do.

 

[DorothyMae]

Right. And that is why I said it is a maturing process we go through. Again, the maturing process which continues the whole of this lifetime.

No matter how spiritually mature we become, in this lifetime we will always see through a glass darkly (1 Cor 13:12). 1 John 3:2 tells us it does not yet appear what we shall be. Even knowing that we have this new man within, we do not know what we shall be.

Have you ever studied the arrabōn (the earnest of the Spirit)?

2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest [Greek arrabōn] of the Spirit in our hearts.

2 Corinthians 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest [Greek arrabōn] of the Spirit.

Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest [Greek arrabōn] of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

728 arrhabṓn – properly, an installment; a deposit ("down-payment") which guarantees the balance (the full purchase-price).​

​

728 /arrhabṓn ("down-payment pledge") is the regular term in NT times for "earnest-money," i.e. advance-payment that guarantees the rest will be given. 728 (arrhabṓn) then represents full security backed by the purchaser who supplies sufficient proof they will fulfill the entire pledge (promise).​

​

HELPS Word-studies​

​

How can something be a done deal and over and a process at the same time? Which part is the done deal? Which part is not done?

 

[DorothyMae]

When Paul use the term sin, many times, it refers to noun and not a verb

What is the difference? It is wrong done most often to another individual. Whether a noun or a verb the wrong has the same weight.