Not By Works

[jackrosie]

When God draws you to him DorothyMae....you know it would never be in fun or Micky taking.

You do know that...Right?

 

[jackrosie]

How do i unignore?
I can’t find the ones I have on ignore anywhere....haaaaaaaa....I guess that’s because I have them on ignore.....haaaaaaaaaaa....so funny!

 

[EleventhHour]

More proof that you obviously cannot understand English or are just to dense or obstinate to be honest....

No one BUYS your drivel or is listening to it.....where do you see the word read in that post....

You have no honesty at all!!

No honesty, and an obvious agenda.... to try to tear down the Gospel and influence those with weaker faiths.

You are right on the money about her in every post!!

 

[EleventhHour]

How do i unignore?
I can’t find the ones I have on ignore anywhere....haaaaaaaa....I guess that’s because I have them on ignore.....haaaaaaaaaaa....so funny!

Click on the persons name.

 

[mailmandan]

Heb. 6:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
9. But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. (NASB, 1995)

Up until the 16th century, this passage was universally interpreted as teaching that a Christian could lose his salvation, and the large majority of Bible scholars today still hold to that position.......

Sounds like an argument straight out of the Roman Catholic church. I commonly hear three different interpretations for Hebrews 6:4-6 (hypothetical view, lost salvation view, never truly saved view) but am not convinced that it "unequivocally" teaches a really "saved" person truly "lost their salvation." According to the hypothetical interpretation, the key word in the passage is IF. According to this view, the writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical statement, "IF a Christian were to fall away." The point being made is that it would be impossible if a Christian fell away to renew them again because Christ died once for sin and if His sacrifice is insufficient, then there’s no hope at all. Based on that view, the passage would present an argument based on a false premise (that a true Christian can permanently fall away) and follows it to its senseless conclusion that they would crucify again for themselves the Son of God.

In regards to the never truly saved view, the words, once enlightened - which means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. The light either leads to acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject the light.

In regards to partakers of the Holy Spirit, the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive.

Those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God, yet have simply tasted and stopped there. People who have experienced these things may be genuine Christians, yet this alone is not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of conversion (repentance unto life, regeneration, salvation, justification, adoption etc..) have taken place for those who fell away. The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet those who draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth do not believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:39)

These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responding to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead sinners to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit." Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

In regards to tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, they may have tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of what was tasted, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." We do not merely taste, but drink into one Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:13)

In regards to renew them again unto repentance, this does not specify whether the repentance was merely outward or genuine accompanied by saving faith. They have in some sense "repented," there may be sorrow for sins and an attempt to turn from them (moral self-reformation) that non-believers can experience. There is repentance that falls short of salvation, which is clear from Hebrews 12:7 and the reference to Esau, as well as the repentance of Judas Iscariot in Matthew 27:3. Paul refers to a repentance “without regret that leads to salvation,” which shows there is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. As with “belief/faith”, so too with “repentance,” we must always distinguish between what is substantial and results in salvation and what is spurious. Renew them again "unto salvation" would be conclusive evidence for the argument of a loss of salvation.

In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. We see in scripture where good fruit is the evidence of spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the trustworthy evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that those who fell away in Hebrews 6 were not genuine believers.

*Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.

It's generally stated by those who believe that salvation can be lost that it can be regained again, yet that would not be the case here if the writer of Hebrews was teaching a loss of salvation. I have heard certain individuals state they know someone who was truly saved, but later lost their salvation, yet only God truly knows the heart of individuals. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and you can't always tell them apart at first.

 

[cv5]

No, it does not state that. The Bible says, “Jesus answered and said to him, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.’”



Can you show me where in the Bible it states that Jesus is one of the three persons in the Trinity? Show me those words!


The Bible is not a toy to play with. The Bible is the word of God, and He uses the words that He, not you, chooses.

Heb. 6:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
9. But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. (NASB, 1995)

Up until the 16th century, this passage was universally interpreted as teaching that a Christian could lose his salvation, and the large majority of Bible scholars today still hold to that position. Indeed, this passage of Scripture gives us the most detailed description of what it means to be saved that we find anywhere in the Bible, and the end of these saved persons who subsequently fall away from the Christian faith is eternal damnation in the fires of hell. This was also the doctrine of our earliest Baptist forefathers before some Baptists heard a brand new doctrine that had been recently conceived by some men in Europe, and spread this new doctrine among their Baptist brothers causing it to take over like a firestorm.


The author of the Epistle to the Hebrews wrote his Epistle using the terminology and phraseology of the very early Church. Therefore, in order to accurately interpret the Epistle to the Hebrews, it is essential to have a solid background in the writings of the very early Church and the terminology and phraseology that they used.

The phrase in verse 4, “those who have once been enlightened,” is a reference to water baptism. Indeed, Justin Martyr (died in 165 A.D.) wrote that the term “enlightenment” was used as a synonym for water baptism of converts to Christianity and he uses the term “the enlightened one” for a person who has been baptized. And the Peshitta, an ancient Syriac translation of the Greek New Testament, renders (when translated into English) the phrase in verse 4, “who have gone down into baptism.”

The phrase in verse 4, “have tasted of the heavenly gift,” was variously interpreted during the first 1500 years, but it was ALWAYS interpreted as describing a born-again Christian. Some, for example, saw it to be a reference to the Eucharist; others saw it to be a reference to the teaching of Christ in John 6:31-58. Still others saw it to be a reference to the forgiveness of sins; others saw it to be a reference to the blessings conferred upon the Christian believer.

The phrase in verse 4, “and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,” is an obvious reference to receiving the Holy Spirit, something that, in the New Testament, happens EXCLUSIVELY to those who have been saved.

The phrase in verse 5, “and have tasted the good word of God,” is a clear reference to the Christian’s experience of hearing the word of God preached and taught and the consequential experience of it in his life as a believer.

The phrase in verse 5, “and the powers of the age to come,” is a reference to the miracles that were performed by the Apostles and other Christians as a foreshadowing of the kingdom to come, and to the other blessings that Christians experience now in part but shall experience in their fullness in the future kingdom.

The phrase in verse 6, “and then have fallen away,” can be properly interpreted only to be speaking of falling from grace and the Christian faith, something that can NOT happen until AFTER a person is saved.

The phrases in verse 6, “it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame,” tell us of the absolutely horrendous consequence of a Christian falling from grace, making the death of Christ on the cross for his sins to be of no effect. This passage expressly speaks of a person who has heard the Gospel, believed it, was saved and baptized, repented of his sins, and enjoyed the blessing of being a born-again Christian—but who subsequently chose to reject Christ and return to his sins. And the fate of such a person could not possibly be any worse—it is “impossible to renew them again to repentance.” Most obviously it is not impossible to renew an unsaved person to repentance if they have repented but not been born again and then fall back into sin. Therefore, the person spoken of has necessarily been born again but has fallen away from the Christian faith. And the born-again Christian who, of his own free will, chooses to reject the Christ who redeemed him is beyond redemption and damned to the fires of hell for eternity.

Verses 7 & 8 are an analogy used to support the author’s statements. Just as the ground which once brought forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled received a blessing from God, and the ground that now yields thorns and thistles is worthless and ends up being burned, so the Christian which once brought forth good fruit unto God but who now brings forth bad fruit ends up being burned in the fires of hell.

Verse 9 tells us that the author has been warning his Christian readers about things that do not accompany salvation, things that happen to Christians who fall away from the faith. Nonetheless, he is reassuring them that that he does not expect them to fall away, as some others had done, but is convinced of better things concerning them, and things that, in their case, accompany salvation, even though he felt that he needed to warn them of the horrendous consequences of apostasy from the Christian faith.

These words were VERY clearly understood until the 16th century when a French politician came along and redefined them to suit his new and novel doctrines—including “The perseverance of the saints” from which all (there are today many of them) of the doctrines of OSAS evolved. Most fortunately, only a relatively small but very vocal minority of the church was tricked by the politician whose works have been translated into more than 100 languages.

Why wouldn't lean on the commentators too much, and certainly not the reformers. This is a Hebrew speaking to an audience of other Hebrews. Some of these Hebrews are evidently at risk of apostasy. Whatever the circumstances I don't believe that there is enough here to create doctrine.

However, With these Scriptures we can definitely create doctrine:
John 10
10:27: My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
10:28: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
10:29: My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

"No man" includes ourselves.

So my questions to you:
Is an apostate saved from eternity past? Was Judas apostate? What does the Scripture say of Judas? Does it say that Judas lost his salvation or does it say that he never possessed it?

As for losing ones salvation I don't believe that the will of man can overpower Gods election.

 

[jackrosie]

More proof that you obviously cannot understand English or are just to dense or obstinate to be honest....

No one BUYS your drivel or is listening to it.....where do you see the word read in that post....

You have no honesty at all!!

Here it is....no one listens to your drivel.

God would never speak to you like that DorothyMae...he listens to you...because he knows you are searching...he will never give up on you....keep searching,he knows your heart.

I would post more on dcontroversal words....but I am praying for him very deeply at the moment....because I believe he is starting to lose the plot....his posts have got worse.

His scripture is spot on.

But his attitude stinks.

It’s a shame,it really is..because he has great biblical knowledge.

 

[EleventhHour]

Here it is....no one listens to your drivel.

God would never speak to you like that DorothyMae...he listens to you...because he knows you are searching...he will never give up on you....keep searching,he knows your heart.

I would post more on dcontroversal words....but I am praying for him very deeply at the moment....because I believe he is starting to lose the plot....his posts have got worse.

His scripture is spot on.

But his attitude stinks.

It’s a shame,it really is..because he has great biblical knowledge.

Here @dcontroversal uses the word "listening" that is entirely different than reading.

To listen means to give attention to what one is reading, and there are levels of attention, there is more careful consideration.

One can read without paying much attention at all.

So no you are wrong, different words and different meaning.

Both you and Mrs. @DorothyMae should apologize for your false accusation.

 

[jackrosie]

Here @dcontroversal uses the word "listening" that is entirely different than reading.

To listen means to give attention to what one is reading, and there are levels of attention, there is more careful consideration.

One can read without paying much attention at all.

So no you are wrong, different words and different meaning.

Both you and Mrs. @DorothyMae should apologize for your false accusation.

Sorry,you can wrap it up in your words as much as you like...I completely disagree..he even said on a post,that he would like to say what he really thinks....but couldn’t because he would be banned.

As I say I love reading scripture he posts.....unfortunately that’s it.....his attitude stinks and so does your’s.
The same as you said I lack scripture knowledge..you are right,but at least I can admit to it.

The reason I am saying this is.....because my attitude was like you 2....only I woke up.or maybe I should say God woke me up...I pray he does the same for you.

Great scripture posted....presentation of it to others.....terrible.

 

[EleventhHour]

Sorry,you can wrap it up in your words as much as you like...I completely disagree..he even said on a post,that he would like to say what he really thinks....but couldn’t because he would be banned.

As I say I love reading scripture he posts.....unfortunately that’s it.

You are just looking to find fault with @dcontroversal because he does not support you in your support of Mrs. Dorothy.

What I stated is completely accurate.

He used the word "listening"... meaning paying attention, taking in, absorbing. The context makes it clear.

You just want to side with you friend @DorothyMae ... she is actually not a nice person by any means she is a teacher of false doctrine.

 

[jackrosie]

You are just looking to find fault.

What I stated is completely accurate.

He used the word listen... meaning paying attention, taking in, absorbing. The context makes is clear.

You just want to side with you friend @DorothyMae ... she is actually not a nice person by any means she is a deceiver.

I am not siding with DorothyMae....she is confused and searching...only you are blind to that....
And again what you stated about dcontroversal....I completely disagree with.

Did you not see.what he said about he can’t speak what he wants to say..because he will be banned.

He has great scripture knowledge the way he deals with those who are confused ,as I was ....his presentation to others....is a disgrace..........DorothyMae is searching and God will never give up on her..

Yes,..she can be rude also,like we all have been....but I have never seen her address others as he does.

You can all wrap it up as you like..but I will not cover up for that type of behaviour.
He has been going at this thread for 3 yrs and you can see his pattern..it has slowly got worse....I believe it has affected his mind...I really do.

 

[EleventhHour]

I am not siding with DorothyMae....she is confused and searching...only you are blind to that....
And again what you stated about dcontroversal....I completely disagree with.

Did you not see.what he said about he can’t speak what he wants to say..because he will be banned.

He has great scripture knowledge the way he deals with those who are confused ,as I was ....his presentation to others....is a disgrace..........DorothyMae is searching and God will never give up on her..

Yes,..she can be rude also,like we all have been....but I have never seen her address others as he does.

You can all wrap it up as you like..but I will not cover up for that type of behaviour.

She stated she knows God... she is not searching.

Words are on a page are not behaviour, you do not know his behaviour so you make false assumptions once again and also make yourself a judge over him.

... and I think @dcontroversal has explained in multiple posts how we are to deal with false teachers with scripture.

My advice take it........ his teachings are sound

... I appreciate your eagerness to learn ... I am thankful you have settled in your mind that salvation is secure over the past few weeks... that is indeed a good thing.

God reveals His Truth to those who take a stand where He takes a stand.
If you stay the course you have will have exciting times ahead as He reveals himself to you.

 

[jackrosie]

She stated she knows God... she is not searching.

Words are on a page are not behaviour, you do not know his behaviour so you make false assumptions once again and also make yourself a judge over him.

... and I think @dcontroversal has explained in multiple posts how we are to deal with false teachers with scripture.

My advice take it........ his teachings are sound

... I appreciate your eagerness to learn ... I am thankful you have settled in your mind that salvation is secure over the past few weeks... that is indeed a good thing.

God reveals His Truth to those who take a stand where He takes a stand.
If you stay the course you have will have exciting times ahead as He reveals himself to you.

I am not judging him at all...i am trying to show him that his behaviour is unacceptable just like you showed me my lack of scripture...maybe look at your heart while your at it...seriously I mean that.......words on a page are behaviour..as I have said..wrap it up as much as you like in your words.
You aren’t helping him either..you are just firing him up more.
I take his scripture but I won’t tolerate his behaviour.

Don’t try and manipulate me with your thinking,because it won’t work.

I have also stayed the course and I have more than exciting times ahead....words can’t express what I have coming from God....I have waited 28 yrs for my vision to come to pass.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am not siding with DorothyMae....she is confused and searching...only you are blind to that....
And again what you stated about dcontroversal....I completely disagree with.

Did you not see.what he said about he can’t speak what he wants to say..because he will be banned.

He has great scripture knowledge the way he deals with those who are confused ,as I was ....his presentation to others....is a disgrace..........DorothyMae is searching and God will never give up on her..

Yes,..she can be rude also,like we all have been....but I have never seen her address others as he does.

You can all wrap it up as you like..but I will not cover up for that type of behaviour.
He has been going at this thread for 3 yrs and you can see his pattern..it has slowly got worse....I believe it has affected his mind...I really do.

Hey sis

I disagree

Dorothy is not searching. she is here to set us all straight and she has failed and will Continue to fail as long as she continues to offer a legalistic gospel

 

[jackrosie]

Hey sis

I disagree

Dorothy is not searching. she is here to set us all straight and she has failed and will Continue to fail as long as she continues to offer a legalistic gospel

I hear you bro....I will wait for DorothyMae to explain that to me...then I will ask God to help me with discernment.

Is what E g says correct DorothyMae?

 

[tantalon]

Salvation is by grace through faith alone. WORKS are summed up in Acts 26: 20, "..."repent and DO WORKS MEET (worthy) OF REPENTANCE. James is just saying the same thing, that after salvation, a changed life is evident by the expected good behaviour of the convert. If a person therefore is not living right by a changed life, then that "faith" one professes may be suspect, even dead. In other words, it is simply faith, (salvation), THAT works.

 

[jackrosie]

The truth is only a born again will enter heaven.

If you are teaching that you don’t believe that DorothyMae...then you will have a fight on your hands....because that is God’s word and truth.

God knows his children.

 

[EleventhHour]

I am not judging him at all...i am trying to show him that his behaviour is unacceptable just like you showed me my lack of scripture...maybe look at your heart while your at it...seriously I mean that.......words on a page are behaviour..as I have said..wrap it up as much as you like in your words.
You aren’t helping him either..you are just firing him up more.
I take his scripture but I won’t tolerate his behaviour.

Don’t try and manipulate me with your thinking,because it won’t work.

I have also stayed the course and I have more than exciting times ahead....words can’t express what I have coming from God....I have waited 28 yrs for my vision to come to pass.

Words on page can be deceptive that is my point around behaviour.
I am sorry I do not get it at all.

You prefer to coddle/defend a person who obviously has an agenda be against someone defends the Gospel.
It does not compute for me.

Thank you for judging my heart as well... you do not know me at all.

 

[jackrosie]

Words on page can be deceptive that is my point around behaviour.
I am sorry I do not get it at all.

You prefer to coddle/defend a person who obviously has an agenda be against someone defends the Gospel.
It does not compute for me.

Thank you for judging my heart as well... you do not know me at all.

I see what you post..that’s enough for me...seriously take a look at your silly behaviour on here..your like a child at times...

I am not coddling anyone...if she doesn’t believe that only born again go to heaven...then I have nothing more to say to her.
That is God’s truth.......she doesn’t understand osas.....because there is no scripture that says once saved always saved..we understand it..but she doesn’t.

 

[walknlight]

He is the Son of God

Do you beleive Him and what He says He will do?

God Bless!