The Purpose of Speaking in Tongues

lenna · Jun 11, 2020

Well, I think it's fine to discuss the 'falling away' or the itching ears syndrome, but without nastiness.

I mean some people do not have a clue. I know in my journey through this world, there are times I have been thankful that deceptive things have been exposed. I would disagree that hatred is fostered in everyone or even most folks. I don't feel hatred for those who deceive others but I am quite concerned for anyone taken in by the false.

We have to understand the principal that we are not warring against flesh and blood, as per Ephesians. Not sure many really let that sink in. That, and the fact we are supposed to discern and not just accept everything because it happened in a church. Where else will the devil choose to do his best work but in a church?

biker · Jun 11, 2020

lenna said:

Well, I think it's fine to discuss the 'falling away' or the itching ears syndrome, but without nastiness.

I mean some people do not have a clue. I know in my journey through this world, there are times I have been thankful that deceptive things have been exposed. I would disagree that hatred is fostered in everyone or even most folks. I don't feel hatred for those who deceive others but I am quite concerned for anyone taken in by the false.

We have to understand the principal that we are not warring against flesh and blood, as per Ephesians. Not sure many really let that sink in. That, and the fact we are supposed to discern and not just accept everything because it happened in a church. Where else will the devil choose to do his best work but in a church?

True Enough!

wolfwint · Jun 13, 2020

biker said:

Dear Biker, sory for be late in answering. I startet an answer when you wrote your Post but was buissy till today. I found now that my reply was deleted. So I will start a new try.

1.Cor.1,8 speaks about that tongues will cease. But it is not said when. It must not be the same time like prophecies shall vail ore knowledge shall vanish away.

In churchhistory speaking in tongues is mentioned, mostly in connection with cults.
One historian wrote that the montanism was growing because they practised spiritual gifts which was not found in the regular church. Montanism was foundet in around a.d. 156-160! So it seems that in this time speaking in tongues which we found in 1.Cor. was far away from be practised in the churches in this time.
The Holyness movement taught an Spiritual expierince with the Holy Spirit, but not with speaking in tongues.
Till 1901 in Topeka we found now the expierience that was called baptism with the Holy Spirit and as Sign to receive it the gift of speaking in tongues. This teaching was not taught the churchhistory before. ( otherwise topeka and azusa would not be praised as a New pentecost. )
This teaching we find also not taught in the NT. Tongues in 1. Cor. was treatet from Paul as an Spiritual gift, like others too.
In the pentecostal movement then it came to splittings. Some taught the baptism with the Holy Spirit enables to live sinnless
Others taught, that who is not speaking in tongues, has not the Holy Spirit and is not saved.
When the pentecostal movement came to germany in 1907, it is reportet that it was acompanied with manifestations we find in the Spiritism. Thats why believers reject it as an teaching from the devil. Jonatan Paul a famos leader from the german pentecostal movement in this time, who also claimed that am Christian who has this baptism is not able to doing sin, in 1919 recall his teaching.

Till today of course the teaching has changed and you can find all Kinds of View. I also believe that many believers are serious in following Christ. They living since many generations in this believe.
And God is answering also prayers and giving Help in live. As he does with all his children indepent in which denomination they are.
I grew up Spiritual in an menonite bretheren church. And many of them Think they are right. In the same way all other denominations thinks in this way. They are right. They are not in all there teachings, but the Lord uses them, because he knows the heart. What we cant claim from ourselves that we know the heart of the other.

1. That I cant find this teaching in the bible and 2. that it was compained with spiritism manifestations ( which we cant find in a acts 2,8,10 ore 19) and false teachings and 3. that it divided ( even if it is not your view) believers in first and second class believers. I dont believe that this teaching is from God.
God may bless you.

wolfwint · Jun 13, 2020

Scribe said:

Wait.. before you swear off the topic forever I wanted to address your statements. I have heard this similar complaint from some brothers I know in real life who are true believers and reformists in doctrine and they seem to be presenting the elitists argument as the reason why they do not think that the current pentecostals are correct. I see this as more of a false accusation directed toward most pentecostals. Most pentecostals such as the Assemblies of God churches in America, (at least the colleges, and pastors, and members who understand the doctrine) do not teach that our brothers who do not believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the gift of speaking in tongues are less saved, or have less of a relationship with Christ. We believe that they are born again and have the Holy Spirit and all that comes with the sanctification through the work of the Holy Spirit that that involves.

But let me address this "elitist argument" accusation and its logic. Would you agree with me that if there are two pastors called to ministry and one of them prays daily for the Lord to help him fulfill his ministry, and one does not that the pastor who prays daily will probably have a more effective ministry? I think most will agree with that statement. If so, they are not claiming that the pastor who does not pray is not SAVED. They are not claiming that the pastor who does not pray is a second class christian. They ARE claiming that his ministry would be benefited by much prayer and that it is Gods method to answer prayers and we cannot expect the same results if we do not pray.

Now the Pentecostal believer (at least the ones in my circles) believe that you are not going to experience the benefits of the gifts of the Holy Spirit for ministry if you do not believe they are for today. You are still saved by faith in Christ and the Holy Spirit still works in you to sanctify you but you will not experience the benefits of speaking in tongues if you do not believe they are available for you today. That does not make you a second class Christian, that DOES make you one who is missing out on what could be yours (at least from the perspective of the sincerely believing pentecostal)

To be offended by that is not reasonable. If you believed in this gift of speaking in tongues and its benefits wouldn't you be motivated by love to encourage others and if they rejected it wouldn't you feel a little sad about that? You may encounter weird people who say stupid things but they should not be considered the spokesmen for the doctrinal statements of the pentecostal movement. I know this will not change anyone's mind, only the careful reading of scripture and sound hermeneutics can do that, but at least I hope you see the difference between our belief that believers who do not speak in tongues are missing out and this false claim that this is an elitist attitude. To say you are missing out should not be twisted to say that we think you are second class. That logic is inflammatory and not representing the true feelings of pentecostals at all. I wish the reformists apologists would stop thinking this argument sounds logical to the pentecostal because it doesn't.

Dear scribe, thank you for your response. I gave just an reply to Biker why I am not trusting this pentecostal teaching. Maby personal you are thinking that I am second class. But the Intention is, that believers who have not the gift of speaking in tongues missing something what God wants to give them. And if they dont want they reject him and in the worst case they are disobiedient to him. Thank you that you and some others thinks different, but this changes not the doctrine itself.
May the Lord bless you.

garee · Jun 13, 2020

biker said:

No need or false teaching.

Have you looked as the foundation of the law found in Isiah 28 reused in 1 Corinthians 14 :21-22?

Tongues is simply prophecy spoken of God in all the languages of the world. Making it into a sign as lying wonderment is for those who mock the tongue of God, the gospel . He says yet for all that they still mock the spirit of judgment and perform the oral tradition of mankind .

Dangerous hobby failing backward like getting bit with a snake to confirm. Here I am I did it.

Once the law is set into place the rest of the doctrine is understanding able. Thing that I do not understand is God has assigned it as sign that is against those who fall back slain in Judgment .The idea of getting filled in the spirit Crucifying's Christ over and over . Makes me wonder what spirit is doing the filling? .God does not give a remnant of grace, That's a Catholic idea

n the law( Isaiah 28) it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. 1 Corinthians 14:21 -22

Scribe · Jun 13, 2020

garee said:

No need or false teaching.

Have you looked as the foundation of the law found in Isiah 28 reused in 1 Corinthians 14 :21-22?

Tongues is simply prophecy spoken of God in all the languages of the world. Making it into a sign as lying wonderment is for those who mock the tongue of God, the gospel . He says yet for all that they still mock the spirit of judgment and perform the oral tradition of mankind .

Dangerous hobby failing backward like getting bit with a snake to confirm. Here I am I did it.

Once the law is set into place the rest of the doctrine is understanding able. Thing that I do not understand is God has assigned it as sign that is against those who fall back slain in Judgment .The idea of getting filled in the spirit Crucifying's Christ over and over . Makes me wonder what spirit is doing the filling? .God does not give a remnant of grace, That's a Catholic idea

n the law( Isaiah 28) it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. 1 Corinthians 14:21 -22

Haters going to hate.. hate.. hate...

biker · Jun 13, 2020

It's interesting that the word Paul used for the "GIFTS" of the Holy Spirit is CHARISMA, where CHARISMATIC comes from.

That means a Baptists with the gift of healing is Charismatic, a lutheran who has Discernment is being Charismatic, a Methodist whose Faith brings miracles is being Charismatic, someone speaking in Tongues is being Charismatic.

If you have the Holy Spirit and have a Gift, you are Charismatic!

CS1 · Jun 13, 2020

wolfwint said:

Dear Biker, sory for be late in answering. I startet an answer when you wrote your Post but was buissy till today. I found now that my reply was deleted. So I will start a new try.

1.Cor.1,8 speaks about that tongues will cease. But it is not said when. It must not be the same time like prophecies shall vail ore knowledge shall vanish away.

In churchhistory speaking in tongues is mentioned, mostly in connection with cults.
One historian wrote that the montanism was growing because they practised spiritual gifts which was not found in the regular church. Montanism was foundet in around a.d. 156-160! So it seems that in this time speaking in tongues which we found in 1.Cor. was far away from be practised in the churches in this time.
The Holyness movement taught an Spiritual expierince with the Holy Spirit, but not with speaking in tongues.
Till 1901 in Topeka we found now the expierience that was called baptism with the Holy Spirit and as Sign to receive it the gift of speaking in tongues. This teaching was not taught the churchhistory before. ( otherwise topeka and azusa would not be praised as a New pentecost. )
This teaching we find also not taught in the NT. Tongues in 1. Cor. was treatet from Paul as an Spiritual gift, like others too.
In the pentecostal movement then it came to splittings. Some taught the baptism with the Holy Spirit enables to live sinnless
Others taught, that who is not speaking in tongues, has not the Holy Spirit and is not saved.
When the pentecostal movement came to germany in 1907, it is reportet that it was acompanied with manifestations we find in the Spiritism. Thats why believers reject it as an teaching from the devil. Jonatan Paul a famos leader from the german pentecostal movement in this time, who also claimed that am Christian who has this baptism is not able to doing sin, in 1919 recall his teaching.

Till today of course the teaching has changed and you can find all Kinds of View. I also believe that many believers are serious in following Christ. They living since many generations in this believe.
And God is answering also prayers and giving Help in live. As he does with all his children indepent in which denomination they are.
I grew up Spiritual in an menonite bretheren church. And many of them Think they are right. In the same way all other denominations thinks in this way. They are right. They are not in all there teachings, but the Lord uses them, because he knows the heart. What we cant claim from ourselves that we know the heart of the other.

1. That I cant find this teaching in the bible and 2. that it was compained with spiritism manifestations ( which we cant find in a acts 2,8,10 ore 19) and false teachings and 3. that it divided ( even if it is not your view) believers in first and second class believers. I dont believe that this teaching is from God.
God may bless you.

Just know if it was delate you did it.

wolfwint · Jun 13, 2020

CS1 said:

No, when I open the thread it was not anymore there.

Scribe · Jun 13, 2020

wolfwint said:

The doctrine of being born again was not taught for over a thousand years because the Roman Catholic Church had obfuscated the scriptures with their own doctrines and told people what the bible meant rather than letting them read and study the scriptures for themselves. Along comes the protestant movement and REDISCOVERS scriptures about being saved by faith alone and other scriptures about salvation became popular in the 1400s that were not popular in the Roman Catholic Church before. Did that make them not true? Just because the visible church was not preaching these things that were in the scriptures for 1000 years did not mean that these truths were not scripture.
In the early 1900s the church began to REDISCOVER scriptures that had been thus far ignored by the protestant movement. Scriptures about gifts of the Holy Spirit being normative for the church. These believers began praying for and recieving the same experiences they read about in Acts. It is called the pentecostal movement and it went world wide. There are literally hundreds of millions of pentecostal believers today. The doctrine of pentecostals rediscovered in the 1900s is as authentic as the soteriology rediscovered by the protestants in the 1400s. We may expect a few other things to be rediscovered before it is all over. Things like the observance of the Lords Supper being not quite the way they did it in the early church might need Reformation.
I never understood how a Protestant (which started in the 1400s) could say pentecostalism isn't scriptural because it started in the 1900s. Both movements started with interpreting the word of God correctly which had not been being interpreted correctly by the Roman Catholic Church. However the Protestants and the reformists just stopped before they were finished reforming and getting back to the original doctrines of the church of Acts. So it was inevitable that sooner or latter those who were carefully studying scripture would notice that all of the scriptures relating to the pentecostal doctrines were needing to be believed and embraced also. And they did and so now we have this great movement that is now the Largest Missionary movement in the world planting more churches and seeing more people saved each year than any other protestant evangelical group by far.

garee · Jun 13, 2020

Scribe said:

Love. . . Love . . . love.

Haters fall backwards mocking prophecy "the tongue of God". Holding on to the love of the oral traditions of men
Haters even refuse to look to the foundation of the law of prophecy. They love the wonderment fill ups .Dangerous activity especially today with the 6 foot safe distance . Who is getting filled today?

The people say, “Who does he think he is trying to teach and explain his message to? Does he think we are babies who were at their mother’s breast only a very short time ago? 10 He speaks to us as though we were babies:Saw lasaw saw lasawQaw laqaw qaw laqawZe’er sham ze’er sham.”So God will use this strange way of talking, and he will use other languages to speak to these people.In the past he spoke to them and said, “Here is a resting place. Let those who are tired come and rest. This is the place of peace.”But they would not listen to him. So the Lord’s words will be senseless soundsto them:“Saw lasaw saw lasaw.Qaw laqaw qaw laqaw.Ze’er sham ze’er sham.”When the people try to walk, they will fall backwards. (Slain in the spirt) They will be defeated, trapped, and captured. Isaiah 28:9=13

Why do they say you must fall backward .Do they have scripture to defend that kind of idea? What if you do not fall backward after making a senseless sound ? Partial filling?

garee · Jun 13, 2020

biker said:

The gift is the Holy Spirit .If you have the Holy Spirit you are a Christian. He does not give fill ups

Spiritual gifts are unseen they work from within .Its a evil generation that chases after sign and wonderments gospel rather that prophecy "the the tongue of God" .. No such thing as a sign gift. The two words are not used together to create a doctrine of God. Simply a doctrine of men who refuse to look to the foundation of the doctrine .

Dino246 · Jun 13, 2020

garee said:

Love. . . Love . . . love.

Haters fall backwards mocking prophecy "the tongue of God". Holding on to the love of the oral traditions of men
Haters even refuse to look to the foundation of the law of prophecy. They love the wonderment fill ups .Dangerous activity especially today with the 6 foot safe distance . Who is getting filled today?

The people say, “Who does he think he is trying to teach and explain his message to? Does he think we are babies who were at their mother’s breast only a very short time ago? 10 He speaks to us as though we were babies:Saw lasaw saw lasawQaw laqaw qaw laqawZe’er sham ze’er sham.”So God will use this strange way of talking, and he will use other languages to speak to these people.In the past he spoke to them and said, “Here is a resting place. Let those who are tired come and rest. This is the place of peace.”But they would not listen to him. So the Lord’s words will be senseless soundsto them:“Saw lasaw saw lasaw.Qaw laqaw qaw laqaw.Ze’er sham ze’er sham.”When the people try to walk, they will fall backwards. (Slain in the spirt) They will be defeated, trapped, and captured. Isaiah 28:9=13

Why do they say you must fall backward .Do they have scripture to defend that kind of idea? What if you do not fall backward after making a senseless sound ? Partial filling?

You continually misrepresent the beliefs and practices of charismatics.

Why?

Scribe · Jun 13, 2020

garee said:

My church is not known for the falling backwards phenomenon. If I pray for someone I am liable to tell them not to fall backwards because I want them to hear me and get in agreement with the prayer I am praying. I do not see the connection of falling backwards and the scriptures about speaking and praying in tongues.
I can't understand your diatribe but I can tell that it is a negative spin on the gift of tongues. I can see you are venting your hatred of those who practice the gift. I also detect a desire to rewrite church history and put a negative spin on the experience of the early church in regard to this gift. It seems as though you are suggesting that God made a fool of them and laughed at them. If you did not mean to give us that impression why am I getting it from several of your posts.
To be honest it seems that your hate has caused you to not be willing do deal honestly with the subject and exegete the scriptures with sound hermeneutics desiring to explore the scriptures and make a sound case for your interpretation.
Your words are buttered with venom and vitriol and provoking to say the least. This is no way to exegete the scriptures that will bring life and edify others.

biker · Jun 13, 2020

garee said:

You do realize a Pastor, your Pastor, is preaching because when he/she was saved and filled with the Holy Spirit, one of their GIFT(s) was to preach. A calling on someone's life is the Gift from the Holy Spirit. We are ALL called, but not everyone shares the same Gift(s). Everyone of your posts in this thread has torn down someone you personally know and love who is a Believer of God. You make it obvious and clear you have no idea what the Gift(s) of the Holy Spirit are.

wolfwint · Jun 14, 2020

Scribe said:

Well, I never read in acts 2, 8, 10 ore 19, that Spiritism behavings takeing place. In acts 8, the samaritians received the Holy Spirit without speaking in tongues.
And again, this teaching we dont find in any letters to the believers.
The athiopean Eunuch in acts 8 went home without laying hands up to receive the Holy Spirit and praying in tongues.
If the Holy Spirit would come into the life of the believer and the Sign for it would be the gift of speaking in tongues, it would not be needed to teach. It would be happend.
The same, if somebody is filled from the Holy Spirit. Speaking in tongues is not the measure for that.
In acts 2, 10 and 19 the Holy Spirit came and revealed the speaking in tongues without asking for.
Yes the pentecostal/charismatic movement is the fastest growing Christian group.
In the bible you find the princip, that the mass is not the measure of to be right.
And you dont know how many will join this groups because of expierience extrasupernatural power and health and wealth. ( like Simeon, the witchcraft in acts 8)
Finaly God knows the heart.

garee · Jun 14, 2020

biker said:

How can we hear God not seen is the question? His kingdom comes not by looking at the temporal things seen.

Yes, I understand that preaching, prophesying the Tongue of God edifies the unseen teacher .One is our Good Master, God not seen. His word is self edifying. He is not served by wonderments marveling rather that prophecy. We hear God through His Tongue not wondering .Wondering marveling amazement is not believing.

We are to call no man on earth Teacher in that way .Its not my goal to tear down anyone. I don't think mocking prophecy with this oral tradition of men is loving each other.

Why do you think God mocked unbelief in mankind in that way?

Will you look to the foundation of the doctrine?

No such thing as a "sign gift". Signs as metaphor follow the unseen work of God.

The same ones in unbelief that demanded that Jesus do something that they could see before they would have faith toward Jesus. Showed the work of marveling rather than believing . Wondering marveling in amazement is not walking faith .It as it is written comes by hearing prophecy the Tongue of God our new tongue the gospel . .

It is the cause of the fall. The. . You will not surely die look at me and live. and the glory departed. A way of saying. Why walk by faith trusting a unseen God.

Acts 8:12-14 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
But Philip told the people the Good News about God’s kingdom and the power of Jesus Christ. Men and women believed Philip and were baptized. Simon himself also believed, and after he was baptized, he stayed close to Philip. When he saw the miraculous signs and powerful things Philip did, he was amazed.

Simon had no faith. He simply tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come

.Laying on of hands is simply a form of prayer no different then folding hands or bowing ones head. Simon thought he could sell amazement wonderments (look at me I did it)

Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Acts 8:17-20

Prophecy. . . not wondering ($$$$$).

John 12:37 [ Some Jews Refuse to Believe in Jesus ] The people saw all these miraculous signs Jesus did, but they still did not believe in him.

John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ($$$$)ye will not believe.

Not one verse throughout the entire Bible that supports making a wonderment sound and falling backwards, slain in the spirit.

Why would any desire to be slain rather than believing the tongue of God prophecy. The filling of the Spirit (one time at our new birth )? .

Absolutely · Jun 14, 2020

Kolistus said:

Gotta love the "kind of".

The reason why it goes church by church is that some churches teach it some dont. And the ones that do have immense pressure for you to speak in tongues so everyone learns a different sounding one, its like the "tongue/language girl" on youtube who can speak "french sounding" but its not actually french at all (She can do this in almost all languages), look it up. And because they dont want to be these "LESS spiritual" guys with no Spirit, they give into peer pressure and start copying what others do and hone their own tongues.

The ones that dont usually sweep it under the rug and say its real languages while ignoring the part where you speak mysteries to God in the Spirit and speaking in tongues of angels and the self-edifying part. If we're talking just regular spoken languages, we know there is nothing edifying in speaking spanish instead of english, or chinese instead of arabic.

Bingo
Every word true.

Now,consider this;
If tongues is a foreign language only given to preach the gospel to some nation that I am not fluent in,
WHY IN THE WORLD IS AN INTERPRETER NEEDED????

Cessationists are just so clever...not

garee · Jun 14, 2020

Dino246 said:

Because I trust prophecy God's tongue not wonderments, marveling. The sign seekers .

Jesus said marvel not but rather believe the tongue of God (prophecy) .Turning the tongue of God into a tongue of confusion rather that faith. Makes me wonder when he comes on the last day we he find faith or a bunch of wonderers philosophers walking after experiences . Wondering the new gospel it is on the rise.

Have you looked to the foundation of the law .Its in the Old Testament revisited in 1 Corinthians 14:21-22

Once the law is understood the rest of doctrine follows easily.

Absolutely · Jun 14, 2020

biker said:

He will act like he is open and wanting to ask a question or interact.

Then he will answer you out of a cessationist workbook.

Never actually engaging you.

Put him on ignore.
It is bliss not seeing that robotic mess

The Purpose of Speaking in Tongues

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