"Not by works" - false!

[Judges1318]

For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off. (Psalm 37:28)

Which is why we should remain saints through faith in Christ.
The promises are for those who believe, not for ex-believers.

So it's about God's power and God's preservation and not man's power and man's preservation.

That's right, God's power...............accessed through faith.
A person is kept by God's power for the salvation that is to be revealed through faith (1 Peter 1:5).
You must continue to believe to the very end to be saved in the very end. That is the conduit through which you access God's power to keep you to the very end. Freegrace doctrine says it is not necessary to believe to the very end.

 

[EleventhHour]

Which is why we should remain saints through faith in Christ.
The promises are for those who believe, not for ex-believers.



That's right, God's power...............accessed through faith.
A person is kept by God's power for the salvation that is to be revealed through faith (1 Peter 1:5).
You must continue to believe to the very end to be saved in the very end. That is the conduit through which you access God's power to keep you to the very end. Freegrace doctrine says it is not necessary to believe to the very end.

It does not take a lifetime to be saved.
Nor is the gift given over a lifetime.
Your dogma filled with inconsistencies.

 

[Magenta]

Malachi 1
1 The burden of the word of the Lord to Israel [b]by Malachi.
2 “I have loved you,” says the Lord.
“Yet you say, ‘In what way have You loved us?’
Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?”
Says the Lord.
“Yet Jacob I have loved;
3 But Esau I have hated,
And laid waste his mountains and his heritage
For the jackals of the wilderness.”

The difference is in God's judgments which are perfectly righteous. Only He can judge righteously.

Jacob and Esau are explicitly named as nations.

 

[posthuman]

The sheep cannot snatch itself out because it has made up its mind to listen and follow Jesus.

is this consistent with the sheep being given to the Son by the Father?

The description is that of a sheep that has a strong relationship with God.

Jesus
1. He knows them
2. He gives them eternal life
3. They shall never perish
4. No one can snatch them out

the list goes on --

5. the sheep are given to the Son by the Father 'that not of yourselves'
6. they will not listen to stranger, they will run away from one
7. they will listen to Him; they know His voice, and they follow Him

this seems to me to be describing something intrinsic to the sheep, an immutable nature -- not their 'decision' but something accomplished by an outside force, a force with the ability to make, to unmake, to remake.

 

[Magenta]

Malachi 1
1 The burden of the word of the Lord to Israel [b]by Malachi.
2 “I have loved you,” says the Lord.
“Yet you say, ‘In what way have You loved us?’
Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?”
Says the Lord.
“Yet Jacob I have loved;
3 But Esau I have hated,
And laid waste his mountains and his heritage
For the jackals of the wilderness.”

The difference is in God's judgments which are perfectly righteous. Only He can judge righteously.

Without getting into the whole to hate someone in OT parlance simply means love less, one way to understand this is in terms of who will be saved and who will not, since Jacob = believers and Esau = non-believers/enemies of God... given that Jacob and Esau are explicitly identified as nations as opposed to individuals. I wanted to add this to my previous post but ran out of edit time

 

[Pulie]

is this consistent with the sheep being given to the Son by the Father?




the list goes on --

5. the sheep are given to the Son by the Father 'that not of yourselves'
6. they will not listen to stranger, they will run away from one
7. they will listen to Him; they know His voice, and they follow Him

this seems to me to be describing something intrinsic to the sheep, an immutable nature -- not their 'decision' but something accomplished by an outside force, a force with the ability to make, to unmake, to remake.

Honestly, I was not thinking about the sheep being given to the Son by the Father, I missed that part. What is your take on it?

I understand where you are coming from, however, its implication is that of me being immutable. It's like saying God inserted His unchanging nature in me.

God's unchanging nature makes Him distinct from everything that He has created. immutability implies perfection in holiness, love, decision making etc and no human being can ever reach that level. I stand to be corrected.

 

[posthuman]

Honestly, I was not thinking about the sheep being given to the Son by the Father, I missed that part. What is your take on it?

I understand where you are coming from, however, its implication is that of me being immutable. It's like saying God inserted His unchanging nature in me.

God's unchanging nature makes Him distinct from everything that He has created. immutability implies perfection in holiness, love, decision making etc and no human being can ever reach that level. I stand to be corrected.

To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles:
which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
(Colossians 1:27)
​

by His will, not mine.
He changed my will. it is not possible for me to change my own will - it would be my own will that conforms itself to itself. no one can 'convert themselves' to anything except a replication of themselves; but He coverts us, conforming us to the image of the Son.
not me but He, in me.

that no one knows Him except who He chooses to reveal Himself to, and that He gives us to the Son, indicates to me where choice, authority, power, prerogative, security, all these things originate: in His majesty and steadfast love. not in me. if it is His work, He will complete it. when we are faithless, He is faithful. if this is so, my lack of faith cannot undo the will of heaven: all that the Father gives to Him will come to Him, will hear and follow Him, and will run away from a stranger. if any are lost, He will find them and carry them home on His shoulder rejoicing.

how can this be misinterpreted?
by putting myself in His place. but He says, take the lowest seat when you are invited to a meal: it is better to be told, come up here, then it is to be thrown down from a place i had no right to insert myself in.

 

[posthuman]

Honestly, I was not thinking about the sheep being given to the Son by the Father, I missed that part. What is your take on it?

that this did not start with me or with you. it started with God. with His choice, not my choice.
that this isn't, a special offer i can choose to reject. i am a gift to the Son from the Father. it's up to Him to keep me, not me to remain "His possession"

some people receive this news with joy, and some people hear this and become very upset at the very idea they weren't sovereign over their own salvation themselves.
for me, i understand this to be unshakable security in Him: because it is His own work, start to finish, and He never fails

 

[jackrosie]

We can go our own way while still believing in him, and if we no longer believe in him. It's when we have gone our own way because of unbelief, not because of weakness or fear or stupidity, that we put our salvation at risk.



I don’t understand what you say here..how can we go our own way and not believe in him...I still had my faith as he resides in my spirit....
When I went my own way...I could feel a void...the reason I felt that way was because I was walking by myself,trying to do everything myself.....
When the Lord Woo/ drew me back to him 5 months ago.....I came alive in my spirit.....God came alive in me...because I am back on track with him......

I have broken your post down because I have concentration problems....so will address the remainder of your post another time..

God Bless You...Judges.

 

[Pulie]

that this did not start with me or with you. it started with God. with His choice, not my choice.
that this isn't, a special offer i can choose to reject. i am a gift to the Son from the Father. it's up to Him to keep me, not me to remain "His possession"

some people receive this news with joy, and some people hear this and become very upset at the very idea they weren't sovereign over their own salvation themselves.
for me, i understand this to be unshakable security in Him: because it is His own work, start to finish, and He never fails

If His grace is irrisistable, then why doesn't he choose everyone to go to heaven?. Why send some to heaven and others to hell. I can't bear the mystery of these doctrine but I can definitely bear the mystery of God's sovereignty and man's free will.

Everyone must be invited to recieve the gift of salvation and feel good the way we feel good when mentioning exciting scriptures.

 

[posthuman]

Everyone must be invited to recieve the gift of salvation and feel good the way we feel good when mentioning exciting scriptures.

where is that written? but i can show you this --

The LORD has made all for Himself, yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.​

(Proverbs 16:4) ​

​

i do not agree with the premise that everyone 'deserves' to receive mercy and grace. in fact by very definition, these are things no one deserves.

if you look at the parable of the wedding feast ((Luke 14 & Matthew 22)) all of those invited made excuses and refused. every single one given a free-will choice with their invitation, rejected it and chose death. but those who finally attended were the poor and lame, bad and good, and they were "summoned/called" & "gathered" ((Matt. 22:9-10)) and "compelled" ((Luke 14:23)) to come. as He says, all that the Father gives will come and will listen and will not listen to a stranger -- but there is the converse, that all who are given a choice, reject Him.
you and i also -- or Ephesians is false. we were God's enemies, and we hated Him, did not look for Him or know Him, could not discern Him, and rejected Him. this was our state when He summoned us.

not saying we don't have free will. but the evidence that it was God who chose us is even while we rejected Him is literally all over scripture. the evidence for the contrary, that we instead chose Him, isn't. it's in human arguments of carnal so-called 'common sense' & vanity.

 

[posthuman]

not saying we don't have free will. but the evidence that it was God who chose us is even while we rejected Him is literally all over scripture. the evidence for the contrary, that we instead chose Him, isn't. it's in human arguments of carnal so-called 'common sense' & vanity.

for example it is said everywhere, 'if love is compelled it cannot truly be love'

but i am unaware of any scripture that says this? is it an emotional argument or a theological one?

 

[posthuman]

for example it is said everywhere, 'if love is compelled it cannot truly be love'

but i am unaware of any scripture that says this? is it an emotional argument or a theological one?

seems to me to be an argument that denies redemption, the new creation, the giving of a new heart and the renewal of the Spirit.
as i understand it i love because and only because He took my hate and replaced it with love, because He took away my heart of stone and gave me an heart of flesh, He made me a new creation in Him with His own Spirit, and renewed my mind to conform to His.

all that amounts to 'compulsion' -- i have become an entirely new person, and the old man despised and rejected Him.
then can it be true that 'it's not real love' since He had to remake me and transform me? would it be any less 'coerced fake love' if it was because some silver-tongued orator was able to convince me with clever arguments to assent to his advice? and then what, i change my own soul by force of will transforming myself from a child of Satan to one of God? can i crawl back into a different womb instead of the first one.

it's written we love because He first loved us. His love is compulsion. His love is transformation. His love is unfailing, and when it goes out from Him it accomplishes His purpose and returns to Him. His love creates.

 

[jaybo]

where is that written? but i can show you this --

The LORD has made all for Himself, yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.​

(Proverbs 16:4) ​

​

i do not agree with the premise that everyone 'deserves' to receive mercy and grace. in fact by very definition, these are things no one deserves.

if you look at the parable of the wedding feast ((Luke 14 & Matthew 22)) all of those invited made excuses and refused. every single one given a free-will choice with their invitation, rejected it and chose death. but those who finally attended were the poor and lame, bad and good, and they were "summoned/called" & "gathered" ((Matt. 22:9-10)) and "compelled" ((Luke 14:23)) to come. as He says, all that the Father gives will come and will listen and will not listen to a stranger -- but there is the converse, that all who are given a choice, reject Him.
you and i also -- or Ephesians is false. we were God's enemies, and we hated Him, did not look for Him or know Him, could not discern Him, and rejected Him. this was our state when He summoned us.

not saying we don't have free will. but the evidence that it was God who chose us is even while we rejected Him is literally all over scripture. the evidence for the contrary, that we instead chose Him, isn't. it's in human arguments of carnal so-called 'common sense' & vanity.

So I guess we can tear John 3:16-18 out of our Bibles.

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.

“Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

It is plainly stated that believing in Christ is a choice. If you believe in the Savior you have eternal life. If you don't, you don't. It's that simple.

 

[posthuman]

So I guess we can tear John 3:16-18 out of our Bibles.

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.

“Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

It is plainly stated that believing in Christ is a choice. If you believe in the Savior you have eternal life. If you don't, you don't. It's that simple.

well if your version says "everyone who chooses to believe in Him" i wouldn't necessarily tear it out but i would try to find a more accurate Bible.

try reading John 3:3-8
see if you can find your sovereign human autonomy in there.
or verses 12-13, did Jesus mention anything to Nicodemus about choosing?

i think you've been taught to pretend there is a word in this chapter which simply isn't there.
human free choice is implicit in verse 19, if you really want to find what your own personal will does in this chapter.

this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light ​

​

there you go. that's what people do when they have a choice. they choose darkness and reject light.
salvation is the overriding of our will by God's own will. no one is good but God alone - no one is worthy but The Lamb to open the scroll.

 

[EleventhHour]

well if your version says "everyone who chooses to believe in Him" i wouldn't necessarily tear it out but i would try to find a more accurate Bible.

try reading John 3:3-8
see if you can find your sovereign human autonomy in there.
or verses 12-13, did Jesus mention anything to Nicodemus about choosing?

i think you've been taught to pretend there is a word in this chapter which simply isn't there.
human free choice is implicit in verse 19, if you really want to find what your own personal will does in this chapter.

this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light ​

​

there you go. that's what people do when they have a choice. they choose darkness and reject light.
salvation is the overriding of our will by God's own will.

or verses 12-13, did Jesus mention anything to Nicodemus about choosing?

Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,[f] 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”[g]

 

[posthuman]

Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,[f] 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”[g]

exactly like the brazen serpent! all we need do is look to Him.

and who is it that believes? that's the sheep chosen by the Father to be given to the Son. chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. chosen by Him to have the Father revealed to them. all of whom come, none of whom are ever cast out. there are many among them that have crept in by some other way than The Gate, but they don't have wedding garments, and they will be found, and cast out.

 

[Blue_Of_Lake]

is this consistent with the sheep being given to the Son by the Father?



the list goes on --

5. the sheep are given to the Son by the Father 'that not of yourselves'
6. they will not listen to stranger, they will run away from one
7. they will listen to Him; they know His voice, and they follow Him

this seems to me to be describing something intrinsic to the sheep, an immutable nature -- not their 'decision' but something accomplished by an outside force, a force with the ability to make, to unmake, to remake.

The Parable of the Banquet … 13 Then the king told the servants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14 For many are called, but few are chosen." 15 Then the Pharisees went out and conspired to trap Jesus in His words.…

Matthew 22

 

[Pulie]

where is that written? but i can show you this --

The LORD has made all for Himself, yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.​

(Proverbs 16:4) ​

​

i do not agree with the premise that everyone 'deserves' to receive mercy and grace. in fact by very definition, these are things no one deserves.

if you look at the parable of the wedding feast ((Luke 14 & Matthew 22)) all of those invited made excuses and refused. every single one given a free-will choice with their invitation, rejected it and chose death. but those who finally attended were the poor and lame, bad and good, and they were "summoned/called" & "gathered" ((Matt. 22:9-10)) and "compelled" ((Luke 14:23)) to come. as He says, all that the Father gives will come and will listen and will not listen to a stranger -- but there is the converse, that all who are given a choice, reject Him.
you and i also -- or Ephesians is false. we were God's enemies, and we hated Him, did not look for Him or know Him, could not discern Him, and rejected Him. this was our state when He summoned us.

not saying we don't have free will. but the evidence that it was God who chose us is even while we rejected Him is literally all over scripture. the evidence for the contrary, that we instead chose Him, isn't. it's in human arguments of carnal so-called 'common sense' & vanity.

John 3:16" for God so loved the world that he give his only begotten son, that whoever believes in him may not perish but have eternal life.

God extended His love to fallen men by sending His son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. The invitation is for all but the application is for those who believe.

I mentioned everyone must recieve the gift of salvation as though we are deserving of it. We do not deserve God's grace and mercy. But according to John3:16, God loved us when we hated him and wanted northing to do with Him(what manner of love is these that he is mindful of us).

I don't understand why you would think God would choose you and send your neighbor to hell.

Please provide more scriptural reference

Yes we didn't choose God but God chose us. Salvation begins with Him as the author and the finisher of our faith.

You seem to lean more towards the idea that men do not have a free will. You can't have them both, it's either you believe God appointed some for hell or has send the invitation to everyone .For me, the invitation is has been send to everyone and I will continue sharing the gospel.

 

[posthuman]

I don't understand why you would think God would choose you and send your neighbor to hell.

Please provide more scriptural reference

i already showed you Proverbs 16:4; Romans 9:22 says the same thing.
how many witnesses do you need? Exodus 33:19? Luke 10:22? John 17:6? Isaiah 40:13-14?

what is written all over the OT about Israel? are they called "the people who chose God" ?
my friend, they are called the people whom God chose.

we, by our free will, all send ourselves to hell. God chose to show mercy to some. He is not 'choosing to send your neighbor to hell' -- your neighbor exercised his autonomous agency to reject the light and choose darkness.

so as i see it, if you will not allow God to have mercy on whom He will have mercy, you've either got universal salvation for all -- a god who is not just -- or you've got people by their own cleverness and strength electing themselves to heaven -- a god who is not sovereign.