Not By Works

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Guojing

Banned
#139,821
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
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#139,821
jaybo said:
1 John 5:13 reads, " I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. "

This verse is in the present tense. It says nothing about continuing to believe.
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Earlier John stated 1 John 2

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

Is John contradicting himself in 1 John 5:13, or perhaps you are trying to force Paul into his letter?
 
star

star

Senior Member
#139,823
Nov 8, 2017
1,582
2,046
113
North Carolina
#139,823
dcontroversal said:
Same here....this worldly Kum Ba Yah love peddled by false religionists, salvation losers and Jesus devaluers is no where near biblical! Nor will I embrace anyone that peddles a gospel that has no power to save a flea, much less a man......love and truth go hand in hand.....and this skewed mushy worldly love has crept into the Lord's churches and watered down the truth and the absolute stance we are to make against false teachers that make two fold the disciples of hell!
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All we have to do is to see what "priest, bishops and other leaders of the churches" in the world are doing now. False teachers peddling false doctrines and telling Christ followers how we are to "love" the things they are infiltrating our churches with. Not me, I believe in God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and the Word of God to the People of God.
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

Senior Member
#139,824
Apr 7, 2014
25,458
13,397
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#139,824
EternalFire said:
May we persevere and ensure salvation both for our self and for those who hear us.

"Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you" (1 Timothy 4:16).
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In regards to 1 Timothy 4:16, we are not passive in perservering in our faith, but it's not in our own power that we perservere. (1 Corinthians 1:8; 2 Corinthians 1:21-22; 1 Peter 1:5) God alone saves, but "in a sense" we save ourselves and others through perserverance in sound doctrine, as we continue to believe the gospel and are used as God's instruments to bring about the salvation of others through preaching the gospel to them as well.

If you fell into a well with no way out and someone threw down and rope and pulled you out, "in a sense" you could say that you "saved yourself" by choosing to grab and hold onto the rope until that person pulled you out, but ultimately, the person who pulled you out of the well saved you and ultimately, it is Jesus Christ who saves us. :)
 
oyster67

oyster67

Senior Member
#139,825
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#139,825
Rosemaryx said:
it is hurting my heart if the truth be known...
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No matter what happens or is said here on this thread, just remember that Jesus loves you and will never leave us nor forsake us. This is what He tells us in His Word. God bless you.
 
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DorothyMae

Banned
#139,826
May 23, 2020
1,558
313
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#139,826
SoulWeaver said:
A lot of people are convinced that Judas was a believer who at some point stopped believing. But in here Jesus speaks about Judas, that he wasn't a believer from the start. He doesn't say the name but it's clear that it's about him:

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

I find this hard to argue. Continuing in the next verse, Jesus expounds on election, confirming for us that Judas wasn't one of the elect.

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Judas was not given.
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You judge that Judas was not given because he left. If you leave later in life as Judas did, then you were never given either, right? The standard you apply to others should be also applied to you. If a believer leaves, they were never given.

Jesus knew from the beginning of Judas decision to steal rather than believe.

It’s the Father’s WILL that NONE perish but that all come to eternal life. Who is called? All. Who is chosen/elect? All who decide to come.
 
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DorothyMae

Banned
#139,827
May 23, 2020
1,558
313
83
#139,827
mailmandan said:
In regards to 1 Timothy 4:16, we are not passive in perservering in our faith, but it's not in our own power that we perservere. (1 Corinthians 1:8; 2 Corinthians 1:21-22; 1 Peter 1:5) God alone saves, but "in a sense" we save ourselves and others through perserverance in sound doctrine, as we continue to believe the gospel and are used as God's instruments to bring about the salvation of others through preaching the gospel to them as well.

If you fell into a well with no way out and someone threw down and rope and pulled you out, "in a sense" you could say that you "saved yourself" by choosing to grab and hold onto the rope until that person pulled you out, but ultimately, the person who pulled you out of the well saved you and ultimately, it is Jesus Christ who saves us. :)
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Correct. The person pulling you out is not making you hold onto the rope.

“He who endures to the end shall be saved.” Jesus
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#139,828
Jul 3, 2015
59,815
29,193
113
#139,828
DorothyMae said:
You judge that Judas was not given because he left. If you leave later in life as Judas did, then you were never given either, right? The standard you apply to others should be also applied to you. If a believer leaves, they were never given.

Jesus knew from the beginning of Judas decision to steal rather than believe.

It’s the Father’s WILL that NONE perish but that all come to eternal life. Who is called? All. Who is chosen/elect? All who decide to come.
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Did Judas ever confess with his mouth and believe in his heart that Jesus is Lord?

 
oyster67

oyster67

Senior Member
#139,829
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#139,829
Magenta said:
It does puzzle me why anyone would think Judas was ever saved :unsure:

The topic/idea does come up from time to time; I have stood against it repeatedly.
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John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Judas became lost after he was given to Jesus.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#139,830
Jul 3, 2015
59,815
29,193
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#139,830
oyster67 said:
John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Judas became lost after he was given to Jesus.
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Aren't we all lost before we surrender our will and our lives to Him? When did Judas do that?

Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not.

Jesus came to seek the lost ;)
 
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DorothyMae

Banned
#139,831
May 23, 2020
1,558
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#139,831
Magenta said:
Can you provide a Scripture verse that plainly shows Judas doing these things, as opposed to him simply being sent out with the others for that purpose? And even if he had done those things, Jesus says Judas was unclean, and called Judas a son of perdition which means he was damned/doomed to destruction. You believe Judas was cleansed and then changed his mind, but Scripture does not bear this out.

"I never knew you (as one of my own)" would apply here :)
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Luke 9 says Jesus appointed the 12 to go out and do these things. Judas was among them. Scripture bears me out.

That which is clean can again become dirty. Scripture says Judas started to steal from the money box. That was the point where he started to depart. He gave in to temptation. That was the beginning Jesus knee of before the others knew.

When Jesus said that night that one would betray him, none of them knew it was Judas. If he was never saved, they would have known. He was no different at first but changed his mind. And Judas actually left them. Jesus didn’t stop him nor leave him. That’s my point.

If a person wanted to leave, Jesus always let them go. He didn’t change his direction and go with the one leaving. The 70 left him. He didn’t go with any of them nor convince them to come back.

Do you want those verses?
 
SoulWeaver

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
#139,832
Oct 25, 2014
4,889
2,534
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#139,832
DorothyMae said:
You judge that Judas was not given because he left. If you leave later in life as Judas did, then you were never given either, right? The standard you apply to others should be also applied to you. If a believer leaves, they were never given.

Jesus knew from the beginning of Judas decision to steal rather than believe.

It’s the Father’s WILL that NONE perish but that all come to eternal life. Who is called? All. Who is chosen/elect? All who decide to come.
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Election and free will are not mutually exclusive, we cannot pit fight election against free will. Jesus has called Judas a devil, and stated twice that Judas didn't believe and that He knew this from the beginning. How to extrapolate from this that Judas was a believer who stopped believing?
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#139,834
Jul 3, 2015
59,815
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#139,834
DorothyMae said:
Luke 9 says Jesus appointed the 12 to go out and do these things. Judas was among them. Scripture bears me out.

That which is clean can again become dirty. Scripture says Judas started to steal from the money box. That was the point where he started to depart. He gave in to temptation. That was the beginning Jesus knee of before the others knew.

When Jesus said that night that one would betray him, none of them knew it was Judas. If he was never saved, they would have known. He was no different at first but changed his mind. And Judas actually left them. Jesus didn’t stop him nor leave him. That’s my point.

If a person wanted to leave, Jesus always let them go. He didn’t change his direction and go with the one leaving. The 70 left him. He didn’t go with any of them nor convince them to come back.

Do you want those verses?
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Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not.

Judas was along for the ride, and then bailed.
 
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DorothyMae

Banned
#139,835
May 23, 2020
1,558
313
83
#139,835
Magenta said:
Aren't we all lost before we surrender our will and our lives to Him? When did Judas do that?

Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not.
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Judas surrendered his life and will to Jesus leaving everything to follow him. He later took it back. This is putting your hand to the plow and looking back. The condition of such a person is worse than an unbeliever.
 
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DorothyMae

Banned
#139,837
May 23, 2020
1,558
313
83
#139,837
SoulWeaver said:
Election and free will are not mutually exclusive, we cannot pit fight election against free will. Jesus has called Judas a devil, and stated twice that Judas didn't believe and that He knew this from the beginning. How to extrapolate from this that Judas was a believer who stopped believing?
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Because Jesus knew from the beginning of his decision not to believe. Jesus warned about falling away or turning back. Judas did.
 
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DorothyMae

Banned
#139,838
May 23, 2020
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#139,838
SoulWeaver said:
What scripture do you prove this by?
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How do you know any of them were given? Because they didn’t fall away? Is that how you know you are “given” because you haven’t yet fallen away? If you later fall away does that mean you were actually never given?
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#139,839
Jul 3, 2015
59,815
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#139,839
DorothyMae said:
Judas surrendered his life and will to Jesus leaving everything to follow him. He later took it back. This is putting your hand to the plow and looking back. The condition of such a person is worse than an unbeliever.
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Judas did not forsake his sinful nature to follow Jesus. How is that surrendering his will and life?

Following someone because you think you can profit from them is like those Jesus
retreated from because they only wanted to be fed physically and not spiritually.
 
D

DorothyMae

Banned
#139,840
May 23, 2020
1,558
313
83
#139,840
Magenta said:
Judas did not forsake his sinful nature to follow Jesus. How is that surrendering his will and life?

Following someone because you think you can profit from them is like those Jesus
retreated from because they only wanted to be fed physically and not spiritually.
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Think about this. How do you know any of them forsook that? Do you have a scripture that describes anyone forsaking their sinful nature? Or describing the other 11 doing so?

Literally following Jesus for those men did not mean physical profit but hardship. They were depending upon donations to even eat.

Also, do you have a scripture for Jesus retreating from those fed because of their attitude? I’ve always thought he was tired.
 
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