Not By Works

[Blain]

I rarely use ignore. My goal has been to present the truth on this thread to those who are still considering OSAS and tempted to take the comfort the theology brings. The strongest message was the response of those who hold it. The fruit of this theology is often consistent. Of course one has to look at the fruit and not merely look at what the teaching is. Good fruit comes from a good tree.

But as for me personally God comforts and corrects me so no worries. I don’t write what I do from past wounds He did not heal. I have a love for the truth but also a love for people especially believers that balance one another. A love for the truth inhibits flattery and a love for people inhibits agreeing with untruth. There is a tension there.

Anyway, thanks for the kind words!

I don't use the ignor button either and I think you have the right attirude to be in this part of the forum I love what you said about the fruits that really was amazing. I am the same way in the manner of fruits I look to the heart of a person not merely the teaching or their particular views.

We can disagree with each other and even completely opposite opinions on a doctrine but if we show the fruits of the spirit with each other then even with the difference of understanding God is present because the fruits show him through them

 

[dcontroversal]

I see that some people are experts at insulting those who are well educated and wise, but totally lack the ability to defend their own beliefs or to contribute anything of value. Such people most shamefully not only lower the standard of Christianity but destroy its influence and disgrace its character while believing that they and their filth are eternally secure in Christ!

Did you do anything other than brag or boast....nope....that is called blather, bloviating etc...!!

 

[DorothyMae]

Show my how JESUS TAUGHT TOLERANCE ?

Jesus said, ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat into my barn.’”

38John said to Him, “Teacher, we saw someone else driving out demons in Your name, and we tried to stop him, because he does not accompany us.”
39“Do not stop him,” Jesus replied. “For no one who performs a miracle in My name can turn around and speak evil of Me.40For whoever is not against us is for us. 41Indeed, if anyone gives you even a cup of water because you bear the name of Christ, truly I tell you, he will never lose his reward.

John 3:3 (HCSB)
3 Jesus replied, “I assure you: Unless someone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Matthew 7:13-16 (HCSB)
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it.
14 How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it.
15 “Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves.
16 You’ll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles?

What fruit do you see in me that is bad? I can quote you words your team has used that is very bad and would offend them if said about them.

John 8:43-45 (NKJV)
43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.

I tell you the truth and you don’t believe me.

John 14:6 (ESV)
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Matthew 25:31-46 (HCSB)
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will put the sheep on His right and the goats on the left.
34 Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you took care of Me; I was in prison and you visited Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink?
38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or without clothes and clothe You?
39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and visit You?’
40 “And the King will answer them, ‘I assure you: Whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’
41 Then He will also say to those on the left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels!
42 For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43 I was a stranger and you didn’t take Me in; I was naked and you didn’t clothe Me, sick and in prison and you didn’t take care of Me.’
44 “Then they too will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or without clothes, or sick, or in prison, and not help You?’
45 “Then He will answer them, ‘I assure you: Whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me either.’
46 “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

HE is not talking about the WORKS Righteousness, because only deeds that are motivated by AGAPE LOVE will be the SAVED.

Where does Jesus mention LOVE of any kind in this? The sheep, by the way KNEW they were doing good for others. They just didn’t know Hesus accepted it as for him.

 

[DorothyMae]

Trust me, she is antagonistic towards those of us who believe the Word of God that salvation is a one-time event and she accuses those who believe this as not loving God as she does.

Untrue and it is you who oppose me. I oppose the teaching. You accuse me of moral evil. I say your understanding is incorrect. You say I’m am antagonist which is character, not understanding. Totally different fruit. That is my point. The fruit of OSAS is as you demonstrate.

 

[DorothyMae]

Is that HOW YOU EXCUSE your incredible FALSE THINKING ? ? ?

Do you know everything that can be know. about the teaching of Jesus? No? Then there are some things you are wrong about in your thinking? Is there anyone here who says everything they think is 100% correct?? It’s more humble to admit we are likely wrong on some matters.

You absolutely do not get it, do you? So I will be ENTIRELY TRUTHFUL WITH YOU, Please do not think this is a personal attack.

This disclaimer usually precedes a personal attack but I’ll keep an open mind.

I know of NO OSAS TRUE BELIEVER, that THINKS YOU CAN LOSE YOUR SALVATION. You either wholeheartedly BELIEVE THE ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED DOCTRINE; or you are something less than a OSAS True Believer.

1 John 2:19 (HCSB)
19 They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us.


WE BELIEVE THAT VERSE LITERALLY.

Doesn’t mention salvation. I’ve been to many churches visiting and then I went out from them because I wasn’t a part of the congregation among others reasons. It’s pretty common. Saved going in and saved going out.

You do not UNDERSTAND that YOU are your own WORST ENEMY! YOU HAVE BEEN CONSTANTLY PUTTING DOWN, BELITTLING, and EVEN WITH EVERY LIE ON THE BOOKS OF FALSE TEACHING ABOUT OSAS BELIEFS. THAT ONLY PUTS US IN A DEFENSIVE MODE, BECAUSE THE LIES YOU TEACH, CAN ONLY BE OF DEVIL, (remember PETER had his mouth used by the devil) AND I DO NOT THINK YOU EVEN KNOW THEY ARE LIES. Please Stop, because YOU REALLY DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. I even have Doubts that you were EVER Born Again for REAL? If you want to rant and rave about OSAS, that you falsely perceive are wrong, THEN GO TO ANOTHER SITE, that is predominated by the teaching and CONTROLLED by Armenians. Yes, their probably are several, and one I actually had my thread CLOSED DOWN, because they DID NOT APPRECIATE my OSAS VIEWS. NO, I will not tell you the site, you will have to find it on your own.

Most of the People on this thread, are solidly OSAS TRUE BELIEVERS, so every time you say anything NEGATIVE, about OSAS, YOU WILL PUT US IN THE DEFENSIVE MODE, and that is not a personal attack on you, it is only your doctrinal so-called beliefs that we are SO TIRED OF the habitual lies, and it will NEVER temp us to reexamine our stance. We stand on the solid ROCK of OSAS, period.

No, that is not personal attack on you, but I am experiencing that which is wearing my thick skin down to paper thin. If you do this on EVERY SITE, where there are lots of OSAS Members, no wonder they get irritated with your unlearned lies, and false teaching. Like I said: It is YOUR put down of OSAS Beliefs and your FALSE STATEMENTS about OSAS, THAT IS THE REAL RUB. In other words, YOU are your own worst enemy.

Ok, no personal attack or I don’t see it if there is one so you kept your promise! Good job. We still disagree but you did good.

Acts 20:28-31 (HCSB)
28 Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock that the Holy Spirit has appointed you to as overseers, to shepherd the church of God, which He purchased with His own blood.
29 I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 And men will rise up from your own number with deviant doctrines to lure the disciples into following them.
31 Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for three years I did not stop warning each one of you with tears.

I am not in your flock. Who is in your flock here so I can leave them alone? (not being sarcastic but mean it)

This verse applies to those with responsibilities over others. Just any christian is not given the authority and therefore not the anointing to deal with these difficult matters demonstrating Agape love. What happens is similar to Calvin’s treatment of opposition or the Inquisition. A “killing” of others thinking they are doing God’s will.

For anyone joining late, my “crime” is to encourage believers to obey what God tells them to do insisting this is important. Not for salvation but for relationship. I discourage the focusing on how great it is you are saved no matter how you behave. This strongly opposed by OSAS holders.

 

[DorothyMae]

Sorry I couldn’t edit the mess with the quotes. The prime OSAS verse in John about them leaving cause they weren’t of us does not address salvation.

The other matter is that those who are “of you” are only known if they never leave. So you really don’t have assurance of salvation until you die and never “went out from them because you weren’t of them.” Of course if you stay that doesn’t mean you’re saved.

But I know, of course, that is not the measure you use. It’s just the defense of your position. You don’t really determine if you or anyone is saved by whether they leave before they die.

Although every OSASer ought to realize that if they “leave,” everyone else will say all those years there were there they were faking it. It’s not that they changed their mind.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sorry I couldn’t edit the mess with the quotes. The prime OSAS verse in John about them leaving cause they weren’t of us does not address salvation.

The other matter is that those who are “of you” are only known if they never leave. So you really don’t have assurance of salvation until you die and never “went out from them because you weren’t of them.” Of course if you stay that doesn’t mean you’re saved.

But I know, of course, that is not the measure you use. It’s just the defense of your position. You don’t really determine if you or anyone is saved by whether they leave before they die.

Although every OSASer ought to realize that if they “leave,” everyone else will say all those years there were there they were faking it. It’s not that they changed their mind.

1. If they were never of us, it means they were never saved
2. it speaks of a person who claims to be of them (a believer) then leaves, as an unbeliever (antichrist)
3. it Does not talk about EVERYONE who leaves. So in this aspect. Your argument that osas thinks it does is in error.
4. it has nothing to do with fakes, jake believers in the church are all over the NT, and to be honest, we may not even know who they are, The licentious ones we can see have no works. But even that on most traditional churches is hard to find, because you only see them one or two times a week. The legalistic ones well they do all kinds of works, and we can not read their minds, so to determine them may be impossible also.
anyway, thanks for showing once again how true my faith is and making it stronger,

god bless

 

[DorothyMae]

1. If they were never of us, it means they were never saved

That verse doesn’t speak of salvation at all.

2. it speaks of a person who claims to be of them (a believer) then leaves, as an unbeliever (antichrist)

Faking it? In my view they fell away for the reasons Jesus describes.

3. it Does not talk about EVERYONE who leaves. So in this aspect. Your argument that osas thinks it does is in error.

In 2. above you speak of those who leave we’re never saved. How do you distinguish between those who leave for other reasons?

4. it has nothing to do with fakes, jake believers in the church are all over the NT, and to be honest, we may not even know who they are, The licentious ones we can see have no works. But even that on most traditional churches is hard to find, because you only see them one or two times a week. The legalistic ones well they do all kinds of works, and we can not read their minds, so to determine them may be impossible also.
anyway, thanks for showing once again how true my faith is and making it stronger,

Ah but if you leave, the others will say you were never saved at all.

 

[DorothyMae]

ABSOLUTELY, I should have pointed that out when I mentioned that to her. THANK YOU!

The Agape Love for HIM and OTHERS, spawns from the LOVE that HE put into our hearts:

Romans 5:5 (HCSB)
5 This hope will not disappoint ⌊us⌋, because God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

I see no love, Agape or otherwise, in these posts.

 

[DorothyMae]

Be all things to all people

Some will only respond to love. Some respond to firmness

Both can be used by God

How does that approach work for you? Getting the response you desire?

 

[DorothyMae]

Denying eternal security is mocking God.

IOW, denying what you believe is mocking God. The catholic Inquisition thought the same.

 

[EleventhHour]

IOW, denying what you believe is mocking God. The catholic Inquisition thought the same.

This does not make sense to me

 

[EleventhHour]

The Catholics had that policy during the Inquisition. Jesus said to let wheat and fares grow lest the wheat be also uprooted.

The Catholic Inquisition did not have the truth so that is not relevant.

The wheat and the tares will grow together but a knowledgeable farmer knows the difference.

And as a farmer's daughter both literally (real life) and Spiritually I have been taught to discern the difference.

The Gospel is once saved always saved, there is no other Gospel.

 

[DorothyMae]

This does not make sense to me

You don’t seem to see the difference between what you think and what the author of the Bible might actually have meant. You assume what you think IS what the author meant with no exceptions. That you might be wrong doesn’t seem to be a part of your thinking. Therefore if someone disagrees with your thinking, you think they deny the Bible.

 

[jaybo]

I see no love, Agape or otherwise, in these posts.

Read more closely then, with an open mind instead of being so defensive.

 

[oyster67]

Every so often I am going to BUMP.....as this scripture is very close to my heart......

You go for it sister! That is exactly what this thread needs!

 

[DorothyMae]

You don’t seem to see the difference between what you
think and what the author of the Bible might actually have meant. You assume what you think IS what the author meant with no exceptions. That you might be wrong doesn’t seem to be a part of your thinking. Therefore if someone disagrees with your thinking, you think they deny the Bible.

The Catholic Inquisition did not have the truth so that is not relevant.

Just who has the truth is known by HOW they treat those who oppose them, not by their assurance they are right. The Catholics were as confident as you are.

The wheat and the tares will grow together but a knowledgeable farmer knows the difference.

Jesus said He would sort them out not you. That’s the difference.

And as a farmer's daughter both literally (real life) and Spiritually I have been taught to discern the difference.

Nice for you but totally irrelevant.[quote
The Gospel is once saved always saved, there is no other Gospel.[/QUOTE] No one who preached the gospel in NT times ever said this. No one.

 

[DorothyMae]

Read more closely then, with an open mind instead of being so defensive.

So it’s my fault you guys use abusive words. Please point out the loving adjectives and I can point out the dispising adjectives. VCO admitted he was defensive. You blame me. VCO is a more honorable member.

 

[oyster67]

This ia an idiotoc response Chuck and it is the book of REVELATION not REVELATIONS......!!! It has NOTHING to do with free will genius!

It was a good response and has everything to do with free will.

 

[jackrosie]

1John :4

God’s Love and Ours.

Dear friends,let us love one another,for love comes from God.
Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
Whoever does not love does not know God.because God is love.
This is how God showed his love among us.
He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.
This is love:not that we loved God,but that he loved us and sent his son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
Dear friends,since God so loved us,we also ought to love one another,God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
We know that we live in him and he in us,because he has given us his Spirit.
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Saviour of the world.
If anyone acknowledges,that Jesus is the Son of God.
God lives in him and he in God.
And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.
God is love.
Whoever lives in Love lives in God and God in him.
In this way,Love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgement,because in this world we are like him.
There is no fear in love.
But perfect love drives out fear,because fear has to do with punishment.
The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
We love because he first loved us.
If anyone says,I love God,yet hates his brother,he is a liar.
For anyone who does not love his brother,whom he has seen,cannot love God,whom he has not seen.
And he has given us this command:
Whoever loves God must also love his brother.

BUMP.