"Not by works" - false!
- Thread starter DBurrage
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
You must continue to believe to continue to be saved:
"2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." - 1 Corinthians 15:2
Even Calvinism agrees with this.
Watch. What you're going to do is keep digging and pestering until you make the passage not really mean what it says, and have twisted the argument into something I haven't said. The narcissist in you won't allow you to deal with me honestly, nor let it go. That's how narcissism works. It's an absolutely evil and destruction personality trait. It's a complete waste of time to try to entertain the demons of a narcissist, so don't expect much participation from me in your quest to protect your ego.
"2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." - 1 Corinthians 15:2
Even Calvinism agrees with this.
Watch. What you're going to do is keep digging and pestering until you make the passage not really mean what it says, and have twisted the argument into something I haven't said. The narcissist in you won't allow you to deal with me honestly, nor let it go. That's how narcissism works. It's an absolutely evil and destruction personality trait. It's a complete waste of time to try to entertain the demons of a narcissist, so don't expect much participation from me in your quest to protect your ego.
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
- Show all
@jackrosie
Judge can correct me if I am wrong but ...
Judge's defines Faith differently that the vast majority of people. (First time I have hear it this way. His definition I believe to be:
FAITH - What God gives an individual that enables him to be able to believe or not believe (some call this 'prevenient grace')
Believing - to know the salvific facts and trust in them to be true
The vast majority of people would say the FAITH and BELIEF are the same thing.
I tried putting Judges definition of FAITH into verses with FAITH. (Obviously, our definition fits all the time) If his definition is true it could fit into the context of many verses. His definition does not fit into some verses. For example:
Acts 26:18 I know how we are sanctified by our definition of belief. I don't know how we are sanctified by "What God gives an individual that enables him to be able to believe or not believe". Maybe his definition of sanctification varies from the norm also.
Romans 1:16 ... I know how the just and upright live by faith. I question his meaning that would be: I know how the just and upright live by What God gives an individual that enables him to be able to believe or not believe.
Romans 3:26 ... I know how the "One who justifies those who have faith in Jesus" ... I don't see how, if we substitute Judge's meaning, how "One who justifies those who God gives an individual that enables him to be able to believe or not believe." People who don't believe won't be justified and thus a contradiction of Judges definition.
Enough verses.
Anyways ...
Judge can correct me if I am wrong but ...
Judge's defines Faith differently that the vast majority of people. (First time I have hear it this way. His definition I believe to be:
FAITH - What God gives an individual that enables him to be able to believe or not believe (some call this 'prevenient grace')
Believing - to know the salvific facts and trust in them to be true
The vast majority of people would say the FAITH and BELIEF are the same thing.
I tried putting Judges definition of FAITH into verses with FAITH. (Obviously, our definition fits all the time) If his definition is true it could fit into the context of many verses. His definition does not fit into some verses. For example:
Acts 26:18 I know how we are sanctified by our definition of belief. I don't know how we are sanctified by "What God gives an individual that enables him to be able to believe or not believe". Maybe his definition of sanctification varies from the norm also.
Romans 1:16 ... I know how the just and upright live by faith. I question his meaning that would be: I know how the just and upright live by What God gives an individual that enables him to be able to believe or not believe.
Romans 3:26 ... I know how the "One who justifies those who have faith in Jesus" ... I don't see how, if we substitute Judge's meaning, how "One who justifies those who God gives an individual that enables him to be able to believe or not believe." People who don't believe won't be justified and thus a contradiction of Judges definition.
Enough verses.
Anyways ...
E
One line a doctrine does not make.... not that you understanding this line in context anyway.
So anyone who is tenacious to defend the Gospel which is OSAS btw...... is a narcissist.
I am in excellent company then.
Really who has been the personal one since I came to this thread.. not me... I have stood up to your dogma as a I always have even when you were Phart and Ralph.
-
1
- Show all
.
Pure toxicity.
God help you.
One line a doctrine does not make.... not that you understanding this line in context anyway.
So anyone who is tenacious to defend the Gospel which is OSAS btw...... is a narcissist.
I am in excellent company then.
Really who has been the personal one since I came to this thread.. not me... I have stood up to your dogma as a I always have even when you were Phart and Ralph.
So anyone who is tenacious to defend the Gospel which is OSAS btw...... is a narcissist.
I am in excellent company then.
Really who has been the personal one since I came to this thread.. not me... I have stood up to your dogma as a I always have even when you were Phart and Ralph.
God help you.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
Well, one starts with the definition of belief which is what you have "When you first received God into your heart". Belief/Faith consists of three things:
1) Knowledge of the gospel. You need something to believe
2) Assent to the truth of the gospel.
3) Trust in the gospel.
I don't know when I was saved. Maybe 5 or 6. Belief was simple for me. I believed my father and my father told me about God/salvation. So I had knowledge and assent definitely. Now the tricky to quantify third element, TRUST.
I measure TRUST by the degree to which I am obedient. Hmmm ... I guess I trusted him, though imperfectly and still do TRUST imperfectly. I guess I TRUST Him much more now. Hmmmm... I guess I would state it like the guy in the Bible. Lord, I believe ... help me in my unbelief, give me more faith. Hmmm ... tricky question.
Augustine: “But I commend not the works of my hands, for I fear that when thou examinest them thou wilt find more faults than merits. This only I say and desire, despise not the works of thy hands. See in me thy work, not mine. If thou sees mine, thou condemnest; if thou sees thine own, thou crownest. Whatever good works I have are of thee".
Christ righteousness has been imputed to us. Praise Him.
1) Knowledge of the gospel. You need something to believe
2) Assent to the truth of the gospel.
3) Trust in the gospel.
I don't know when I was saved. Maybe 5 or 6. Belief was simple for me. I believed my father and my father told me about God/salvation. So I had knowledge and assent definitely. Now the tricky to quantify third element, TRUST.
I measure TRUST by the degree to which I am obedient. Hmmm ... I guess I trusted him, though imperfectly and still do TRUST imperfectly. I guess I TRUST Him much more now. Hmmmm... I guess I would state it like the guy in the Bible. Lord, I believe ... help me in my unbelief, give me more faith. Hmmm ... tricky question.
Augustine: “But I commend not the works of my hands, for I fear that when thou examinest them thou wilt find more faults than merits. This only I say and desire, despise not the works of thy hands. See in me thy work, not mine. If thou sees mine, thou condemnest; if thou sees thine own, thou crownest. Whatever good works I have are of thee".
Christ righteousness has been imputed to us. Praise Him.
-
1
- Show all
E
Do I get a chapter. LOL
Hmmm... maybe I do. I better be careful what I wish for.
Hmmm... maybe I do. I better be careful what I wish for.
-
1
- Show all
The Calvinism believes that God gives them faith/belief and never takes it away. Thus, the verse is not a contraction.
Note: There are verses about continuing in the faith. Those with “true” faith will not fall away. The purpose of these verses is always to warn those who are thinking of falling away or have fallen away that it is a strong indication that they were never saved in the first place (1 John 2:19).
Colossians 1:23 [And this He will do] provided that you continue to stay with and in the faith [in Christ], well-grounded and settled and steadfast, not shifting or moving away from the hope [which rests on and is inspired by] the glad tidings (the Gospel), which you heard and which has been preached [as being designed for and offered without restrictions] to every person under heaven
Hebrews 3:14 For we have become partakes of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm to the end
1 Peter 1:5 Who are being guarded (garrisoned) by God’s power through [your] faith [till you fully inherit that final] salvation that is ready to be revealed [for you] in the last time.
Aside: Judges1318 and @EleventhHour ... be nice. When you two get to heaven I will tell the Father to make sure you two don't sit beside each other.
Note: There are verses about continuing in the faith. Those with “true” faith will not fall away. The purpose of these verses is always to warn those who are thinking of falling away or have fallen away that it is a strong indication that they were never saved in the first place (1 John 2:19).
Colossians 1:23 [And this He will do] provided that you continue to stay with and in the faith [in Christ], well-grounded and settled and steadfast, not shifting or moving away from the hope [which rests on and is inspired by] the glad tidings (the Gospel), which you heard and which has been preached [as being designed for and offered without restrictions] to every person under heaven
Hebrews 3:14 For we have become partakes of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm to the end
1 Peter 1:5 Who are being guarded (garrisoned) by God’s power through [your] faith [till you fully inherit that final] salvation that is ready to be revealed [for you] in the last time.
Aside: Judges1318 and @EleventhHour ... be nice. When you two get to heaven I will tell the Father to make sure you two don't sit beside each other.
No, actually, in Calvinism it would mean you definitely had never really believed if you have fallen away.
If what Calvinism says is true there is no room for faulty or weak believing among true believers. But Calvinists keep giving wiggle room to 1 John 2:19 and making allowances for believers leaving without really leaving. They nibble the ground out from under their own theology when they do that.
Obviously, the author did not mean the interpretation that Calvinism applies to this verse. Calvinism says you can know for sure that you are a true believer because you hold fast the faith you started out in. But if you stop holding fast tomorrow you not only show that you never really believed to begin with but that the believing you were assured was real believing yesterday turned out to not be real at all. You were deceived. And somehow that's supposed to be the doctrine of security and assurance.
Actually, what the Bible teaches is you are saved as long as you are believing.
You are secure in Christ as long as you are believing in him.
Done. Simple.
No need to create an over-thought, complicated doctrine about salvation and believing.
If what Calvinism says is true there is no room for faulty or weak believing among true believers. But Calvinists keep giving wiggle room to 1 John 2:19 and making allowances for believers leaving without really leaving. They nibble the ground out from under their own theology when they do that.
Obviously, the author did not mean the interpretation that Calvinism applies to this verse. Calvinism says you can know for sure that you are a true believer because you hold fast the faith you started out in. But if you stop holding fast tomorrow you not only show that you never really believed to begin with but that the believing you were assured was real believing yesterday turned out to not be real at all. You were deceived. And somehow that's supposed to be the doctrine of security and assurance.
Actually, what the Bible teaches is you are saved as long as you are believing.
You are secure in Christ as long as you are believing in him.
Done. Simple.
No need to create an over-thought, complicated doctrine about salvation and believing.
-
1
- Show all
But anyway, @Fastfredy0 , we both agree that you have to keep believing to be saved when Jesus comes back. And we both agree that holy living is the sign of the true believer. It is those who believe in Freegrace doctrine that say you do not have to keep believing in order to remain saved, or else that would be works. They say you can go back to unbelief and you are still saved. Yeah, I know. It's crazy.
-
2
- Show all
They fit nicely. I'm not sure why you think they don't.
Try it using the way the Bible defines 'faith':
"the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" - Hebrews 11:1 KJV
Remember: Saving faith is RETAINED faith. Those who have retained the evidence of things not seen (believing it) are saved.
Try it using the way the Bible defines 'faith':
"the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" - Hebrews 11:1 KJV
Remember: Saving faith is RETAINED faith. Those who have retained the evidence of things not seen (believing it) are saved.