Attacks on the Rapture: a popular pastime among some Christians

[TheDivineWatermark]

You run from presented truth

[...]
... claim of a (Pre-Trib) rapture in 1 These 4:14-17, verses used without comparison.

Why do you say that we use only 1Th4:14-17 "WITHOUT COMPARISON" when I've repeatedly stated that Paul speaks of the "event" of "our Rapture" something like TEN TIMES in these 2 epistles (NOT merely in 1Th4:17!)

 

[Nehemiah6]

How in the world could any rational person claim this resurrection isn't the (LAST DAY) as seen below.

How can any rational person not understand that "the last day " is NOT a literal 24-hour day, when all prophecies are taken together and studied properly?

So Truth7t7, you now have two options: (1) open your heart and mind to the truth and the proper interpretation of Scripture or (2) continue to deceive yourself and others with false interpretations. You are trying to be a teacher when you have no clue and therefore trying to mislead people.

Since according to Christ, both the righteous and unrighteous dead are resurrected on "the last day", and from the rest of the New Testament we know that those two resurrections are separated by MORE THAN 1,000 YEARS, Christ used "the last day" as a metaphor for the end of the age.

Indeed He called it "an hour", and that is obviously a metaphor for a period of time in this context: Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:28,29)

Jesus could have said "the time" instead of "the hour" and that would have been correct. And He could also have said "the last period of time" for "the last day" and that too would have been correct according to the rest of Scripture.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Let's just believe the Bible then ok?
Over a doctrine.
[...]
7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us. This will take place at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels,
8 when he takes vengeance with flaming fire on those who don’t know God and on those who don’t obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Verse 7 states, "rest/repose with us IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus from heaven..."

And v.8 mentions His "VENGEANCE" (see Lk18:8 "AVENGE in quickness [noun]," the SAME "in quickness [noun]" that Rev1:1[/1:19c/4:1 (7:3)] speaks of [re: the FUTURE aspects of the Book], and the same "in quickness [noun]" that Rom16:20 speaks of [addressed specifically to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," where it says] "shall crush Satan UNDER YOUR FEET in quickness [noun]" [see also 1Cor6:3[14], and Rev5:9, etc])

 

[cv5]

Why do you say that we use only 1Th4:14-17 "WITHOUT COMPARISON" when I've repeatedly stated that Paul speaks of the "event" of "our Rapture" something like TEN TIMES in these 2 epistles (NOT merely in 1Th4:17!)

Totally agree. A pre-TRIB rapture is pretty much boilerplate doctine insofar as the Scriptures are concerned. It seems as if people keep forgetting that according to 1 Corinthians 15, the rapture is a mystery that has been newly disclosed by revelation to Paul.

You cannot conflate the rapture with any Scriptures that you please. Only those that deal with this specific topic. If you keep that in focus you're going to come up with all the right answers.

 

[Truth7t7]

But I never claimed exactly 2000 years of tribulation nor 2000+ years, you did. You made that my claim for me (saying I was claiming a 2000 year gap between verse 29 and verse 30). So there was no point delving into the details of how exactly 1,260 years of tribulation were fulfilled in these last 2000 years if my overall premise of the tribulation taking longer than 3.5 literal years is what we were discussing.

Below is specifically how I see tribulation playing out over history. But first, there are a few important points we probably should consider:

1. No timeframe either of us supposes is against the scripture found in Matthew 24 because Matthew 24 doesn't give any numbers whatsoever. Neither does Luke 21. They just state that there is a timeframe, marked by the AOD.

2. The only passages that give specific numbers for this timeframe are found in Daniel and Revelation. So we need to look there.

3. Daniel 12 is given three numbers:

1290 "days"
1260 "days" (time, times, and a half)
1335 "days"

...given by the man in linen.

He tells Daniel that from the time the DAILY SACRIFICE is taken away until the abomination of desolation is setup there will be 1290 "days".

Daniel would've understood that the daily sacrifice was the continual offering made in the temple, which had ended during the siege of Babylon in around roughly 606BC. Daniel was already exiled so he saw the daily sacrifice first taken away...but if 1290 days are literal then the AOD was setup in 603BC (???). No this doesn't work. So the measurement must be "each prophetic day is a literal year"...but is there biblical precedent for this principle? Yes.

- In Numbers 14 the Almighty made Israel wander the desert 40 years for *each day* the spies were sent into Canaan. They were sent for 40 days.

- In Ezekiel 4 the prophet was commanded to lay on his left side for 390 days, followed by his right side for 40 days "a day for each year" each half of the kingdom would be punished.

- Israel wandered for 40 years in the desert after being baptized in the red sea. The Messiah, who is called the "firstborn" of the Almighty (just like Israel was), went into the wilderness to fast for 40 days after baptism.

That's three witnesses establishing the principle as true. Day for the person, year for the nation.

So 1290 years after 606BC = 685AD, and this is roughly the date the Dome Of The Rock began construction (with a range of a few years). It's an abominable structure setup in the Holy place preventing any Temple from being rebuilt there, leaving the land desolate of a temple.

4. Continuing with the day for a year principle, 1260 years after 685AD or so = 1945AD.

1945 is the year of the atomic bomb. Nuclear power is generated by exciting Uranium atoms; literally by "shaking" them.

"...and the powers of heaven will be shaken."

The Greek word translated as "heaven" is "Ouranos", where we get the word Uranus, from which the word Uranium is derived.

So the powers of Uranium also would be shaken immediately after the tribulation of those days.

5. In 1948, 3 years later the world outlawed slavery and established the State of Israel.

So these are significant dates in human history.

6. Continuing with the day for a year principle, 1335 years after 685AD = 2020 (with a range of a few years). The man in linen said "blessed is anyone who reaches the 1335 day"...but again, there's a range of about 3 years so the "blessed year" could be this year or 2023?

Either way, from my studies the very next event is the literal appearance of the Son of Man and His gathering.

So far down the road of make believe I'm astonished.

And to put icing on the cake a 2022-2023 return of Jesus Christ to earth

A wishful "Fairy Tale"

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Totally agree. A pre-TRIB rapture is pretty much boilerplate doctine insofar as the Scriptures are concerned. It seems as if people keep forgetting that according to 1 Corinthians 15, the rapture is a mystery that has been newly disclosed by revelation to Paul.

You cannot conflate the rapture with any Scriptures that you please. Only those that deal with this specific topic. If you keep that in focus you're going to come up with all the right answers.

Yeah... nothing '*drives me battier' than people like P. Robertson telling people, "see Matt24:29-31? This PROVES the rapture is AFTER the trib!"

Um, Pat, that passage is NOT describing the "Rapture".




[see Isa27:12-13 ... "GREAT trumpet"... "gather ye [Israel] ONE BY ONE" (NOT "AS ONE," see the difference?)... "to worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM" (see the distinction?)]




[ * ...kidding]

 

[Truth7t7]

Totally agree. A pre-TRIB rapture is pretty much boilerplate doctine insofar as the Scriptures are concerned. It seems as if people keep forgetting that according to 1 Corinthians 15, the rapture is a mystery that has been newly disclosed by revelation to Paul.

You cannot conflate the rapture with any Scriptures that you please. Only those that deal with this specific topic. If you keep that in focus you're going to come up with all the right answers.

1 Cor 15 isnt a mystery as you claim

It clearly shows the timing of the resurrection of the believer to be (Then Cometh The End) (Death is Swallowed Up)
(The Last Day) resurrection 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17

1 Corinthians 15:22-26 & 52-54KJV
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

We see below the second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens and the resurrection of the believer in Jesus Christ.

God's word (CLEARLY TEACHES) that the resurrection takes place on the (LAST DAY) And yes this means (THE LAST DAY)

As Is Clearly Seen, Any Claim Of A (Pre-Trib) rapture is 100% false, This Is (THE LAST DAY)

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17KJV
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John 6:40KJV
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:23-24KJV
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ This is the SEQUENCE issue I was speaking of:

v.23 has the word "epeita [from epi [G1909] and eita [G1534]"] translated "AFTERWARD" (kjv);

V.24 has the word "[THEN] eita [G1534 ^ ]" which is a SEQUENCE WORD ONLY, with NO time element attached to it


So... see how the first two LISTED items are something near 2000 yrs apart? [1) "firstfruit Christ" and 2) "AFTERWARD they that ARE Christ's at His coming" = far apart, time-wise]


It is NO PROBLEM at all for the next two LISTED items to be 1000 yrs apart, as well (BECAUSE "eita" is a SEQUENCE WORD ONLY, with NO time element attached).

in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end

 

[Ahwatukee]

I do believe it is a display of God's wrath upon closer inspection of the scriptures you provided, but still don't think that's a good enough reason to believe in a pre-trib rapture. The wrath isn't for Christians, though they will be persecuted during the great tribulation, meaning Christians will be here for it.

My friend, by answer above, it tells me that you have not studied the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment and thereforef have no idea of the severity and their magnitude. With just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet (a fourth and a third) over half the worlds population will have been killed. These are God's plagues of wrath and will affect all of the inhabitants on the earth during that time. You're having the church who have been waiting for the blessed hope, watching and anticipating the Lord's appearing and are having them punished right along with the wicked. The coming wrath of God is not the same as the trials and tribulations that Jesus said believers would have because of their faith. This is God's coming wrath, which no longer rests upon the believer and that because Jesus already satisfied it on behalf of every believer. Think about what I am saying here. What is it going to take to get you to understand this scriptural principle? If the Lord was to send his church through His wrath, what difference would there be between the righteous and the wicked? According to you there would be no difference!

"Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." Revelation 20:4

As far as I can tell that's consistent with the rest of scripture on the topic.

Those above is referring to the great tribulation saints, not the church, which will have been resurrected and caught up several years earlier prior to God's wrath. After Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, the beast and the false prophet are thrown alive into the lake of fire, Satan is sealed in the Abyss for a thousand years and those saints who will have died during the great tribulation are those who be resurrected in Rev.20:4-6.

You guys continually come in here with only partial scriptural information, which you base your conclusions on and begin to teach the same.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I am assuming that since there is explicit indication that the 144,000 are excluded from the fifth trumpet judgment, they are also excluded from the first four, and the following the judgments.
And the two witnesses enjoy divine protection in the sense that they have a divine offensive capabilities. All attacks on the two witnesses fail until such time is God allows them to be killed.

Well, regarding the 144,000, I can only state what scripture says, which is that they are exempt from the torment of the 5th trumpet. That could very well be the case, but it doesn't state that they are protected from any other plagues of wrath. So where scripture is silent, then I am also silent.

Regarding the two witnesses, yes, they are protected during their 1260 days of prophecy. Any human who tries to harm them before their time of prophesying is up, will be killed by the fire that proceeds from their mouths. At the end of that time, the beast will come up out of the Abyss and kill them.

 

[Truth7t7]

It is the last day. For the Church that is. You do realize that there are multiple phases resurrections for different groups correct?

There are now multiple (Last Day's) for different groups?

There is one future (Last Day) as seen below, (The Day Of The Lord) at the return of Jesus Christ to Earth, Dissolved By Fire!

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

 

[Blain]

You it is funny how I cam to know what the rapture was it all began with my first vision. I was a brand new believer and I have always to this day and even then wanted to have just one day with him ever since I read the verse better is one day in your courts and then heard the song of it. I wanted it badly just to spend one day with him to get to know him to be with him I had the entire day planned outXD but one day in my room I sat down in front of my bed and asked him can I even have this day with you? no sooner had I asked that an angel appeared I even remember the exact spot he stood and said yes you can! suddenly I was ascending upwards the feeling of it cannot even be described it words and I had no clue what was going on I just knew I was going to Jesus and as soon as it began it ended. I had no clue what was going on so I came on cc asked about it, I didn't recieve any answers expect someone saying to be careful because the enemy can appear as an angel of light but as time went by I heard about something called the rapture and then I was like so that is what was happening.

The main argument for the rapture is that it isn't spoken of in the bible but is the harpazo the catching away there are many verses that don't come right out and say the rapture as that is a man made word for it but it does speak of the event and in great detail. Regardless if people believe in it or not or see it as a made up doctrine we who are in him know in our spirits because the spirit speaks all truths and we have a built in spiritual radar and when we know how to use it and listen to it then our spirits confirm what he says we don't need evidence or proof because inside the truth and evidence is spoken to us and we recieve it.

 

[Truth7t7]

My friend, by answer above, it tells me that you have not studied the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment and thereforef have no idea of the severity and their magnitude. With just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet (a fourth and a third) over half the worlds population will have been killed. These are God's plagues of wrath and will affect all of the inhabitants on the earth during that time. You're having the church who have been waiting for the blessed hope, watching and anticipating the Lord's appearing and are having them punished right along with the wicked. The coming wrath of God is not the same as the trials and tribulations that Jesus said believers would have because of their faith. This is God's coming wrath, which no longer rests upon the believer and that because Jesus already satisfied it on behalf of every believer. Think about what I am saying here. What is it going to take to get you to understand this scriptural principle? If the Lord was to send his church through His wrath, what difference would there be between the righteous and the wicked? According to you there would be no difference!

Those above is referring to the great tribulation saints, not the church, which will have been resurrected and caught up several years earlier prior to God's wrath. After Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, the beast and the false prophet are thrown alive into the lake of fire, Satan is sealed in the Abyss for a thousand years and those saints who will have died during the great tribulation are those who be resurrected in Rev.20:4-6.

You guys continually come in here with only partial scriptural information, which you base your conclusions on and begin to teach the same.

You State that the plagues of Revelation will come upon the Church present on earth?

Your claim is a big false fairy tale, Pinocchio's nose is growing.

You will closely note that the plagues "Specifically" are brought upon the Beast and His Kingdom/Followers.

You will closely note, the "Two Witnesses" in Rev 11 below control all plagues coming on earth, the good guys pitching for "Team Jesus"!

Revelation 16 King James Version (KJV)
16 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

"ALL PLAGUES AS OFTEN AS THEY WILL"!

Revelation 11:3-6KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

God's divine protection and promise during the tribulation.

If they try to jail or kill, in return they will be jailed killed?

Open your ears to God's protection!

This is the patience of the Church during the tribulation.

Revelation 13:9-10KJV
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

The final hours of earth's temptation, the Church is instructed to enter their dwellings until the indignation of wrath is past, just like the Passover in Egypt.

Isaiah 25:119-21KJV
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

 

[Ahwatukee]

i agree with most of this but nowhere does it say that we are all changed at the same time

============================================================

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

===========================================================

The above could not be any clearer! Those who have died in Christ, will rise first immortal and glorified. After they have been raised, then we who are still alive will be changed and caught up with them.

The dead in Christ is referring every believer who has died since the beginning of the church up until the resurrection takes place. Immediately after that, those in Christ who are still alive when the resurrection takes place, will be changed immortal and glorified and will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. This information shows this to be a group event and which takes place almost simultaneously.

...i believe it is the last trumpet and we are being changed right now but in each persons own time. Not all at the same time. We are getting ready to be "caught up" in the clouds.

Really?! While it is true that we are taking on the characteristics of Christ, i.e. the fruits of the Spirit, the change that is going to take place at our gathering, will be from mortal to immortal. And it is not a gradual change, but immediate one. I can tell you from personal experience from being in Christ for over 45 years, that I have not gradually taken on any immortal characteristics, as my body is still aging and has aches and pains, etc.

What I would suggest to you, is to copy and paste I Thessalonians 4:13-18 and I Corinthians 15:51-53 and read them over and over and over and over ………. Until you understand what you are reading and what is being said. Because what you are suggesting is not what the scripture teaches, at all. According to your belief, you would have people waiting in the air for 2000 years, because it says that we will be caught up together. That's a group event, not individual.

 

[Truth7t7]

You it is funny how I cam to know what the rapture was it all began with my first vision. I was a brand new believer and I have always to this day and even then wanted to have just one day with him ever since I read the verse better is one day in your courts and then heard the song of it. I wanted it badly just to spend one day with him to get to know him to be with him I had the entire day planned outXD but one day in my room I sat down in front of my bed and asked him can I even have this day with you? no sooner had I asked that an angel appeared I even remember the exact spot he stood and said yes you can! suddenly I was ascending upwards the feeling of it cannot even be described it words and I had no clue what was going on I just knew I was going to Jesus and as soon as it began it ended. I had no clue what was going on so I came on cc asked about it, I didn't recieve any answers expect someone saying to be careful because the enemy can appear as an angel of light but as time went by I heard about something called the rapture and then I was like so that is what was happening.

The main argument for the rapture is that it isn't spoken of in the bible but is the harpazo the catching away there are many verses that don't come right out and say the rapture as that is a man made word for it but it does speak of the event and in great detail. Regardless if people believe in it or not or see it as a made up doctrine we who are in him know in our spirits because the spirit speaks all truths and we have a built in spiritual radar and when we know how to use it and listen to it then our spirits confirm what he says we don't need evidence or proof because inside the truth and evidence is spoken to us and we recieve it.

Here we go again

The vast "Majority" of christians believe in a future (rapture/catching up) of the believer

The argument on this forum appears to be, not all christians believe in dispensationalism's (Pre-Trib) position.

When talking about (rapture/catching up. There are basically 3 positions.

I believe and teach of the Post-Trib position.

1.) Pre-Trib
2.) Mid-Trib
3.) Post- Trib

 

[cv5]

There are now multiple (Last Day's) for different groups?

There is one future (Last Day) as seen below, (The Day Of The Lord) at the return of Jesus Christ to Earth, Dissolved By Fire!

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

You need a few more years under your belt before you will be able to sort it all out. Be patient and keep at it. The answers will come God willing.

 

[cv5]

Here we go again

The vast "Majority" of christians believe in a future (rapture/catching up) of the believer

The argument on this forum appears to be, not all christians believe in dispensationalism's (Pre-Trib) position.

When talking about (rapture/catching up. There are basically 3 positions.

I believe and teach of the Post-Trib position.

1.) Pre-Trib
2.) Mid-Trib
3.) Post- Trib

Switch over to the the pre-trib position and you're good to go lol.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

You reference only the 144k are sealed in their foreheads.

Then you attach verses thinking you show the church on earth protected from the wrath.

The church is in heaven. That is easily proven.

Trying to make that sealed concept apply is like saying Jesus nor paul knew what they are talking about.

You need the dead rising after the living,and noah and lot taken away AFTER those judgements.

Your deal is impossible.

AGAIN! Church members in heaven is no conclusive proof they were raptured to get there. There are church members in heaven NOW.

You've never done a bible study on spiritual marking? The seal or mark of God? A principle introduced early in prophecy.
Cain was marked. God has made "that sealed concept" and embedded it in scripture.
The blood of the lamb protects us from the wrath of God. It can't be casually dismissed.

God protected Israel though they were among the Egyptians. He brought them out AFTER his punishment was delivered.
Pharaoh (The antichrist figure) was aware God was taking Israel and he pursued them.

Exodus 12
12 “I will pass through the land of Egypt on that night and strike every firstborn male in the land of Egypt, both people and animals. I am the Lord; I will execute judgements against all the gods of Egypt.

13 The blood on the houses where you are staying will be a distinguishing mark for you; when I see the blood, I will pass over you. No plague will be among you to destroy you when I strike the land of Egypt.


Ezekiel 8
"5 He spoke to the others in my hearing: “Pass through the city after him and start killing; do not show pity or spare them!
6 Slaughter the old men, the young men and women, as well as the children and older women, but do not come near anyone who has the mark.


The 5th Trumpet judgement (locusts) is visited only on those without the mark of God
Rev 9:4 " They were told not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green plant, or any tree, but only those people who do not have God’s seal on their foreheads."

The first bowl of wrath is poured out on people with the mark only.
Rev 16: 2 The first went and poured out his bowl on the earth, and severely painful sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and who worshipped its image.


Every pre-trib rapture believer should re-read Exodus and Ezekiel Chapter 9

Ez 9:4 and said to him, “Go throughout the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the detestable things that are done in it.”
5 As I listened, he said to the others, “Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion.
6 Slaughter the old men, the young men and women, the mothers and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary.” So they began with the old men who were in front of the temple.


2 Peter 2:7-8 “...and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)”

Lot wasn't removed before tribulation. He had to endure in the midst of the city of sin and was removed just prior to it's complete annihilation.

Noah wasn't removed before tribulation, he had to endure tribulation but was kept safe through God's wrath on the earth.

Israel weren't removed. They were protected by the blood of the Passover lamb while the plagues came down on the Egyptians.

Shadrach, meshach, and abednego were protected INSIDE the fiery furnace.

Daniel was protected INSIDE the lion's den.

Jonah lived INSIDE a whale 3 days!

God is able to preserve us through tribulation and protect us from his wrath.
No pre-tribulation removal is required.

 

[Truth7t7]

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For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

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The above could not be any clearer! Those who have died in Christ, will rise first immortal and glorified. After they have been raised, then we who are still alive will be changed and caught up with them.

The dead in Christ is referring every believer who has died since the beginning of the church up until the resurrection takes place. Immediately after that, those in Christ who are still alive when the resurrection takes place, will be changed immortal and glorified and will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. This information shows this to be a group event and which takes place almost simultaneously.



Really?! While it is true that we are taking on the characteristics of Christ, i.e. the fruits of the Spirit, the change that is going to take place at our gathering, will be from mortal to immortal. And it is not a gradual change, but immediate one. I can tell you from personal experience from being in Christ for over 45 years, that I have not gradually taken on any immortal characteristics, as my body is still aging and has aches and pains, etc.

What I would suggest to you, is to copy and paste I Thessalonians 4:13-18 and I Corinthians 15:51-53 and read them over and over and over and over ………. Until you understand what you are reading and what is being said. Because what you are suggesting is not what the scripture teaches, at all. According to your belief, you would have people waiting in the air for 2000 years, because it says that we will be caught up together. That's a group event, not individual.

Why Do You (Disregard) the (Last Day Resurrection) Seen In The Scripture Below, Why?

I have clearly looked at 1 Thess 4:14-17 & 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 below

These verses represent the second coming (Last Day) resurrection when (Death Is Swallowed Up) (Then Cometh The End)

It clearly shows the timing of the resurrection of the believer to be (Then Cometh The End) (Death is Swallowed Up)
(The Last Day) resurrection 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17

1 Corinthians 15:22-26 & 52-54KJV
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

We see below the second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens and the resurrection of the believer in Jesus Christ.

God's word (CLEARLY TEACHES) that the resurrection takes place on the (LAST DAY) And yes this means (THE LAST DAY)

As Is Clearly Seen, Any Claim Of A (Pre-Trib) rapture is 100% false, This Is (THE LAST DAY)

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17KJV
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John 6:40KJV
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:23-24KJV
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

 

[Yahshua]

So far down the road of make believe I'm astonished.

And to put icing on the cake a 2022-2023 return of Jesus Christ to earth

A wishful "Fairy Tale"

Lol more like a blessed hope. I'll do you one better and say I believe the earliest year is this year while the latest year is 2028 (since 2028 would be "two days" since His ascension).

Hosea 6:2
After two days He will revive us; on the third day He will raise us up, that we may live in His presence.

Scripture says we wouldn't know the day or the hour, not the times and seasons. So this is a high watch time for me.