"Not by works" - false!
- Thread starter DBurrage
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
...but not a work to EARN salvation.
And so Paul calls faith 'not working':
"who does not work" - Romans 4:5
See? Those are his parameters in which 'working' and 'not working' are defined, not mine, not the dictionary's parameters.
We need to go by what Paul is saying. Faith is 'not working' in comparison to 'working' to earn salvation. He defined the meanings of those phrases for the purpose of the topic. That's what we need to go by.
And so Paul calls faith 'not working':
"who does not work" - Romans 4:5
See? Those are his parameters in which 'working' and 'not working' are defined, not mine, not the dictionary's parameters.
We need to go by what Paul is saying. Faith is 'not working' in comparison to 'working' to earn salvation. He defined the meanings of those phrases for the purpose of the topic. That's what we need to go by.
If you reword this making the differentiation between 'faith' and 'believing' I think I can clear up a few things for you easier.
Faith is the supernatural ability to know the gospel really is true, and is graciously given by God to everyone who he calls.
'Believing/trusting' is man's response to God's gracious gift faith, the supernatural gift of 'knowing'.
I have to point this out to you because I do in fact think that 'faith' (the supernatural ability to know the gospel really is true) comes from God, not us. But no one ever got saved by simply knowing and agreeing that the gospel really is true (even the demons know that), but only those who then place their trust in what they now know to be true about the gospel are saved. And, as I've shown, Paul calls the trusting we do 'not working'.
Faith is the supernatural ability to know the gospel really is true, and is graciously given by God to everyone who he calls.
'Believing/trusting' is man's response to God's gracious gift faith, the supernatural gift of 'knowing'.
I have to point this out to you because I do in fact think that 'faith' (the supernatural ability to know the gospel really is true) comes from God, not us. But no one ever got saved by simply knowing and agreeing that the gospel really is true (even the demons know that), but only those who then place their trust in what they now know to be true about the gospel are saved. And, as I've shown, Paul calls the trusting we do 'not working'.
Re:
Premise 3: FAITH is an act of righteousness
Well, we disagree. Doing something righteous is a work by definition. The dictionary is authoritative.
I agree with you and Paul and God that faith is not a work. I say so because God gives one faith (John 6:29). You say so because Paul says so but you do not explain why Paul says so (circular logic) using the dictionary definition of WORK so there is not contradiction.
Your explanation needs to explain why Paul does not think FAITH is not a WORK in the context of the meaning of WORK. My explanation may be wrong, but it is a logically sound explanation given the dictionary definition of WORK (a mental or physical endeavor to achieve a purpose.)
Put in other words.... we both agree that Pauls says faith is not a work. You won't say why did is true and I have. IMO
Premise 3: FAITH is an act of righteousness
Well, we disagree. Doing something righteous is a work by definition. The dictionary is authoritative.
I agree with you and Paul and God that faith is not a work. I say so because God gives one faith (John 6:29). You say so because Paul says so but you do not explain why Paul says so (circular logic) using the dictionary definition of WORK so there is not contradiction.
Your explanation needs to explain why Paul does not think FAITH is not a WORK in the context of the meaning of WORK. My explanation may be wrong, but it is a logically sound explanation given the dictionary definition of WORK (a mental or physical endeavor to achieve a purpose.)
Put in other words.... we both agree that Pauls says faith is not a work. You won't say why did is true and I have. IMO
1) You say "all our righteousness comes from God"
2) You say faith comes from us ... God allows us to decide and the decision is not God's
3) You say faith is an act of righteousness
Assuming I got the above "YOU SAYS" correct ... you have a contradiction.
Aside: You must be on lunch... something good I hope
2) You say faith comes from us ... God allows us to decide and the decision is not God's
3) You say faith is an act of righteousness
Assuming I got the above "YOU SAYS" correct ... you have a contradiction.
Aside: You must be on lunch... something good I hope
Agreed
I think this is officially called "prevenient grace", though you have not embraced term. You are substituting FAITH for "prevenient grace" IMO. This is 'free willers' doctrine that explains how man can overcome the depravity of man (verses like NO ONE SEEKS GOD).
Dictionary definition of FAITH: complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
Similar: Trust, belief, conviction, hope
Thus, I don't except your differentiation of the words FAITH and BELIEF and cite the dictionary as my authority.
I think most Arminians would rephrase your thinking as:
'Believing/trusting' is man's response to God's gracious gift faith "prevenient grace", the supernatural gift of 'knowing'.
I think I understand you. Your terminology of FAITH is not equal BELIEF is foreign, that's all.
Aside: "prevenient grace" is not found in the Bible IMO, though proponents would site John 1:9, Titus 2:11, John 12:32, Romans 2:4, 1 Tim. 2:4
Aside2: "prevenient grace" definition: the gift of God to allow men to 'freely' decide to believe or not. (which you are calling faith IMO)
I think this is officially called "prevenient grace", though you have not embraced term. You are substituting FAITH for "prevenient grace" IMO. This is 'free willers' doctrine that explains how man can overcome the depravity of man (verses like NO ONE SEEKS GOD).
Dictionary definition of FAITH: complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
Similar: Trust, belief, conviction, hope
Thus, I don't except your differentiation of the words FAITH and BELIEF and cite the dictionary as my authority.
I think most Arminians would rephrase your thinking as:
'Believing/trusting' is man's response to God's gracious gift faith "prevenient grace", the supernatural gift of 'knowing'.
I think I understand you. Your terminology of FAITH is not equal BELIEF is foreign, that's all.
Aside: "prevenient grace" is not found in the Bible IMO, though proponents would site John 1:9, Titus 2:11, John 12:32, Romans 2:4, 1 Tim. 2:4
Aside2: "prevenient grace" definition: the gift of God to allow men to 'freely' decide to believe or not. (which you are calling faith IMO)
E
I support the idea with scripture and you give an indifferent face... nice... @Fastfredy0
You would be correct I am not discussing further and entertaining your Limited Atonement ... God hates ALL unbelievers nonsense.
You would be correct I am not discussing further and entertaining your Limited Atonement ... God hates ALL unbelievers nonsense.
-
1
- Show all
Anybody can commit an act that is righteous.
But a declaration of righteousness can only come from God.
And only as a free gift, not as a wage for righteous work completed.
No.
The gift of faith--the ability to know the gospel is true--comes from God.
Believing what God shows you to be true is from you.
It's not unrighteous to be able to decide.
And it's not a work completed in order to earn salvation. And so it is not 'work' in that regard.
And that is the point Paul is making.
I don't think believing is unrighteous, do you?
But what it is not is a righteous work completed in order to earn justification.
Paul says so.
That's the important point.
Done with lunch.
Back to work.
I'm going to try to get my boss to let me believe for my money.
He should be okay with that since believing is work too.
But a declaration of righteousness can only come from God.
And only as a free gift, not as a wage for righteous work completed.
No.
The gift of faith--the ability to know the gospel is true--comes from God.
Believing what God shows you to be true is from you.
It's not unrighteous to be able to decide.
And it's not a work completed in order to earn salvation. And so it is not 'work' in that regard.
And that is the point Paul is making.
I don't think believing is unrighteous, do you?
But what it is not is a righteous work completed in order to earn justification.
Paul says so.
That's the important point.
Done with lunch.
Back to work.
I'm going to try to get my boss to let me believe for my money.
He should be okay with that since believing is work too.
E
Alright then ... I did have a lengthy conversation with @jackrosie already regarding what @eternally-gratefull said to her so not sure why you are disagreeing.
As for your questions fair enough ... I will reflect on them and once again show you where you are wrong.
As for your questions fair enough ... I will reflect on them and once again show you where you are wrong.
Alright then ... I did have a lengthy conversation with @jackrosie already regarding what @eternally-gratefull said to her so not sure why you are disagreeing.
As for your questions fair enough ... I will reflect on them and once again show you where you are wrong.
As for your questions fair enough ... I will reflect on them and once again show you where you are wrong.
Did you...sorry I missed that post.....I will scroll back for it.
Not sure if the answering of questions was directed to me or @jackrosie
If me, don't worry about it. Was too long ago.
We can assume I was wrong and leave it at that.
Aside: You aren't my wife using the EleventhHour ID by chance ...she is always right too.
If me, don't worry about it. Was too long ago.
We can assume I was wrong and leave it at that.
Aside: You aren't my wife using the EleventhHour ID by chance ...she is always right too.
-
1
- Show all