The absurdity and heresy of Preterism
- Thread starter Nehemiah6
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Not true. As I said, God gave Esau land which is a kind of covenant. The fact is we would never know about any covenants the other nations had with God as no written record has reached us. That covenant for the Messiah was unique to Israel but that does not mean no other covenants can be made with God and He honors them as long as the people who made them with him honored them. That verse does not say no nation every made any covenant with God.
You know, Abraham met Melchezidek who was not connected with Israel and was nevertheless in covenant with God in some sort.
You know, Abraham met Melchezidek who was not connected with Israel and was nevertheless in covenant with God in some sort.
Many people regarded Melchezidek as a type of Christ, but even if you don't, you mean you disagree with the explicit statement from Paul in Ephesians 2:11-12 about Gentiles and God, in time past?
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Just because you interpret Revelation 20:1-7 as spiritual doesn't mean that it is correct. Your interpreting it as spiritual would have no basis whatsoever, other than by your own personal decision. By ignoring what the scripture is saying in the plain literal sense, you miss the meaning of what is being said and thereby distort the meaning of God's word.
This is another assumption on your part by claiming that I know that there isn't going to be a literal earthly kingdom. Are you a mind reader now? When it comes to God's word, I do not pretend, because I am accountable to God regarding His word. So I am certainly not going to falsely interpret these scriptures as being spiritual, when the plain literal sense makes good sense.
To interpret it as spiritual, would be to blatantly ignore the plain meaning of scripture. The reason that you have opted for this interpretation, is because you have been deceived by the false teachings of men. You read it somewhere and you adopted it. Based on this, you are probably among the same group that erroneously interprets the event of the rich man and Lazarus as being a parable.
Think about it! You wouldn't be able to say to the Lord, "But Lord, your word doesn't say 'a thousand years.' It's spiritual. And the Lord would say, 'I wrote a thousand years in My word.' where did you get that idea that it wasn't a literal thousand years?' And you would say, 'I read it in another book.'
Below is the chronological order of events which will literally take place, just as they are written:
* Jesus returns to the earth to end the age - Revelation 19:11-21
* The beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire alive - Revelation 19:20
* Satan seized and thrown into the Abyss and sealed over him for a thousand years - Revelation 20:1-3
* Satan released from the Abyss at the end of the thousand years - Revelation 20:7
* Satan thrown into the lake of fire - Revelation 20:10
You ought to believe what the literal word of God says and not what someone tells you it says.
This is another assumption on your part by claiming that I know that there isn't going to be a literal earthly kingdom. Are you a mind reader now? When it comes to God's word, I do not pretend, because I am accountable to God regarding His word. So I am certainly not going to falsely interpret these scriptures as being spiritual, when the plain literal sense makes good sense.
To interpret it as spiritual, would be to blatantly ignore the plain meaning of scripture. The reason that you have opted for this interpretation, is because you have been deceived by the false teachings of men. You read it somewhere and you adopted it. Based on this, you are probably among the same group that erroneously interprets the event of the rich man and Lazarus as being a parable.
Think about it! You wouldn't be able to say to the Lord, "But Lord, your word doesn't say 'a thousand years.' It's spiritual. And the Lord would say, 'I wrote a thousand years in My word.' where did you get that idea that it wasn't a literal thousand years?' And you would say, 'I read it in another book.'
Below is the chronological order of events which will literally take place, just as they are written:
* Jesus returns to the earth to end the age - Revelation 19:11-21
* The beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire alive - Revelation 19:20
* Satan seized and thrown into the Abyss and sealed over him for a thousand years - Revelation 20:1-3
* Satan released from the Abyss at the end of the thousand years - Revelation 20:7
* Satan thrown into the lake of fire - Revelation 20:10
You ought to believe what the literal word of God says and not what someone tells you it says.
No, what you add to the verse is what I disagree with. It says nothing about God never entering into any covenant with any other people. Sorry but it does not say that. You add that. And Mel was a priest of God. A real man in a real covenant with the Real God. Not Hebrew by any stretch of the imagination.
Where does this say, "and God never entered into any covenant with any other people the whole of human history?"
Where does this say, "and God never entered into any covenant with any other people the whole of human history?"
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The Order Of Events
Jesus Christ returns in fire and final judgement "immediately after the tribulation", dissolving this earth by his "Fire"
2 Thess 1:7-8, Malachi 3:2, 1 Cor 3:13, Rev 20:9, 2 Peter 3:10
There wont be a physical earth to have a fairy tale 1,000 year kingdom on, after the return of Jesus Christ.
Sorry to ruin your Millennial Kingdom party, its gonna be the "Eternal Kingdom", New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, at the return of Jesus Christ "Immediately After The Tribulation" Matthew 24:29-21
Jesus Christ returns in fire and final judgement "immediately after the tribulation", dissolving this earth by his "Fire"
2 Thess 1:7-8, Malachi 3:2, 1 Cor 3:13, Rev 20:9, 2 Peter 3:10
There wont be a physical earth to have a fairy tale 1,000 year kingdom on, after the return of Jesus Christ.
Sorry to ruin your Millennial Kingdom party, its gonna be the "Eternal Kingdom", New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, at the return of Jesus Christ "Immediately After The Tribulation" Matthew 24:29-21
I specified the time period from Genesis 12, until the mystery of the grace dispensation revealed to Paul. I hope when you say "the whole of human history", you are also thinking of that time period?
Ephesians 2:12 stated that we who were Gentiles were
strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
That is not clear enough for you? strangers from the covenantS, plural
God sees 2 groups of people before the revelation of the mystery, Jews and Gentiles. If you are not of Abraham, you are a Gentile.
Ephesians 2:12 stated that we who were Gentiles were
strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
That is not clear enough for you? strangers from the covenantS, plural
God sees 2 groups of people before the revelation of the mystery, Jews and Gentiles. If you are not of Abraham, you are a Gentile.
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You are the one who claims that what is written in Revelation has already occurred and you claim to have a “link that goes through the events in Revelation that fits the descriptions of what happened at the time in Judea”.
Post your link.
If you refuse to post your link, I must conclude that you do not have said link [proof] ... or you won't post your link because you "find it so disgusting that [you] do not look into it if [you] don't have to do so”.
Did you at least look at the link I provided? Did you compare what is revealed at that link with whatever atrocities you claim “the events in Revelation … fits the descriptions of what happened at that time in Judea“? And please note, this is only one source. There are other sources as well. If such sources are needed by you in order for you to understand that there are believers who suffer horrible atrocities in our day and time, I will provide those to you.
Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Revelation 2:10-11 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Revelation 2:25-28 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. And I will give him the morning star.
Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Revelation 3:20-21 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
You are the one who insists that what is written in Rev 2-3 is not written to believers in our day and time.
I provided you with the Scripture which indicates that all Scripture is profitable … no timetable involved.
Your scenario [timetable] does not allow the profit in our day and time because of your insistence that what was written to the churches had to happen at the time you have decided.
I have provided proof that christians are suffering terribly to this day and these suffering christians benefit from what is written to the churches in Rev 2-3, but you claim that is not written for their benefit … only to those churches which fall under whatever timetable you have devised in your own head.
If God had wanted to include an end to the time in which all Scripture is profitable, He would have done so. However, He did not. All Scripture profitable. Perhaps you can tell us when Scripture is unprofitable.
Jesus did not just "threaten Ephesus with coming if they did not comply". Jesus told them He would come and remove thy candlestick out of his place (Rev 2:5). And if you want to know what is the candlestick, check out Rev 1:20.
And I believe to this day, a church which loses its first love (i.e. the Lord Jesus Christ), that church may continue as a social gathering place, but it will not have the Lord Jesus Christ in its midst (Rev 1:13) and the light of the Lord will not shine in that church.
So the warning to the church at Ephesus to return to the Lord Jesus Christ is a warning not only to the church at Ephesus at the time John wrote, but to all churches from the time John wrote to this very day.
Here is the word of comfort to the church at Thyatira:
Revelation 2:
24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.
I followed the words of Jesus. you don't like it? tough for you.
Think what you want ... your inability to even consider/recognize that there are words of encouragement written to those churches speaks only to your inability to comprehend what is written.
Again, see above. Hopefully you will not deny that there is some comfort in knowing that Jesus:
will give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God to those who overcome (Rev 2:7)
will give a crown of life ... and those who overcome shall not be hurt of the second death (Rev 2:10-11)
will give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written (Rev 2:17)
will put upon you none other burden ... that Jesus encourages the church to hold fast till I come ... that Jesus promises that he that overcomes and keeps His works unto the end, to him will [Jesus] give power over the nations ... that Jesus will give to those who overcome the morning star (Rev 2:24-28)
the overcomers will be clothed in white raiment; and Jesus will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels (Rev 3:5)
Jesus will make the overcomers a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name (Rev 3:12)
Jesus stands at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me (Rev 3:20)
Again ... how long has it been since Revelation was written?
Just provide whatever you claim to have which “goes through the events in Revelation that fits the descriptions of what happened at the time in Judea”, so the rest of us can see that prophecy written in Revelation was fulfilled soon ("near").
Post your link.
If you refuse to post your link, I must conclude that you do not have said link [proof] ... or you won't post your link because you "find it so disgusting that [you] do not look into it if [you] don't have to do so”.
Did you at least look at the link I provided? Did you compare what is revealed at that link with whatever atrocities you claim “the events in Revelation … fits the descriptions of what happened at that time in Judea“? And please note, this is only one source. There are other sources as well. If such sources are needed by you in order for you to understand that there are believers who suffer horrible atrocities in our day and time, I will provide those to you.
Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Revelation 2:10-11 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Revelation 2:25-28 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. And I will give him the morning star.
Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Revelation 3:20-21 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
You are the one who insists that what is written in Rev 2-3 is not written to believers in our day and time.
I provided you with the Scripture which indicates that all Scripture is profitable … no timetable involved.
Your scenario [timetable] does not allow the profit in our day and time because of your insistence that what was written to the churches had to happen at the time you have decided.
I have provided proof that christians are suffering terribly to this day and these suffering christians benefit from what is written to the churches in Rev 2-3, but you claim that is not written for their benefit … only to those churches which fall under whatever timetable you have devised in your own head.
If God had wanted to include an end to the time in which all Scripture is profitable, He would have done so. However, He did not. All Scripture profitable. Perhaps you can tell us when Scripture is unprofitable.
Jesus did not just "threaten Ephesus with coming if they did not comply". Jesus told them He would come and remove thy candlestick out of his place (Rev 2:5). And if you want to know what is the candlestick, check out Rev 1:20.
And I believe to this day, a church which loses its first love (i.e. the Lord Jesus Christ), that church may continue as a social gathering place, but it will not have the Lord Jesus Christ in its midst (Rev 1:13) and the light of the Lord will not shine in that church.
So the warning to the church at Ephesus to return to the Lord Jesus Christ is a warning not only to the church at Ephesus at the time John wrote, but to all churches from the time John wrote to this very day.
Here is the word of comfort to the church at Thyatira:
Revelation 2:
24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.
I followed the words of Jesus. you don't like it? tough for you.
Think what you want ... your inability to even consider/recognize that there are words of encouragement written to those churches speaks only to your inability to comprehend what is written.
Again, see above. Hopefully you will not deny that there is some comfort in knowing that Jesus:
will give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God to those who overcome (Rev 2:7)
will give a crown of life ... and those who overcome shall not be hurt of the second death (Rev 2:10-11)
will give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written (Rev 2:17)
will put upon you none other burden ... that Jesus encourages the church to hold fast till I come ... that Jesus promises that he that overcomes and keeps His works unto the end, to him will [Jesus] give power over the nations ... that Jesus will give to those who overcome the morning star (Rev 2:24-28)
the overcomers will be clothed in white raiment; and Jesus will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels (Rev 3:5)
Jesus will make the overcomers a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name (Rev 3:12)
Jesus stands at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me (Rev 3:20)
Again ... how long has it been since Revelation was written?
Just provide whatever you claim to have which “goes through the events in Revelation that fits the descriptions of what happened at the time in Judea”, so the rest of us can see that prophecy written in Revelation was fulfilled soon ("near").
So you think the Lord calls people to Himself and then turns them away to follow other men, which results in contentions in the church??? Is that what you believe???
Nope. Salvation is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast (Eph 2:8-9).
However, if we turn from Him, that is something we do. And if you believe that is some sort of "WORKS" oriented salvation, you would be wrong.
God encourages us not to leave Him ... to remain steadfast in faith. However, we do not always do as God instructs. And I do not blame God for my falling short. When I do not follow Him, that is my fault for having turned from Him.
We are encouraged to study God's Word. Start out with the milk of the word that we may grow thereby (1 Peter 2:2). Continue to study and grow in the Lord. Mature to the point where we are able to move on to meat (see Heb 5:12-14).
Ephesians 4 tells us be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive (Eph 4:14).
We think it strange if a baby does not physically mature and grow from infant to adult. But for some reason, we do not pay as much attention to spiritual growth. Sadly, there are some believers who remain in spiritual infancy or childhood or adolescence without reaching full adulthood. Those who do not mature to adulthood are the ones who are tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive. And we also have to be careful because we have an adversary who is very adept at drawing folks away from the Lord. We need to remain focused on the Lord Jesus Christ, draw near to Him and He will draw near to us.
Nope. Salvation is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast (Eph 2:8-9).
However, if we turn from Him, that is something we do. And if you believe that is some sort of "WORKS" oriented salvation, you would be wrong.
God encourages us not to leave Him ... to remain steadfast in faith. However, we do not always do as God instructs. And I do not blame God for my falling short. When I do not follow Him, that is my fault for having turned from Him.
We are encouraged to study God's Word. Start out with the milk of the word that we may grow thereby (1 Peter 2:2). Continue to study and grow in the Lord. Mature to the point where we are able to move on to meat (see Heb 5:12-14).
Ephesians 4 tells us be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive (Eph 4:14).
We think it strange if a baby does not physically mature and grow from infant to adult. But for some reason, we do not pay as much attention to spiritual growth. Sadly, there are some believers who remain in spiritual infancy or childhood or adolescence without reaching full adulthood. Those who do not mature to adulthood are the ones who are tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive. And we also have to be careful because we have an adversary who is very adept at drawing folks away from the Lord. We need to remain focused on the Lord Jesus Christ, draw near to Him and He will draw near to us.
We are talking universally Italy, Greece, Asia Minor, Mesopotamia, maybe parts of Africa. It's nothing like what we would think in terms of universally today, the entire world's nations etc.
In fact, For the first 280 years of Christian history, Christianity was banned by the Roman Empire, and Christians were terribly persecuted. This changed after the “conversion” of the Roman Emperor Constantine. Constantine provided religious toleration with the Edict of Milan in AD 313, effectively lifting the ban on Christianity.
Even though Christianity was banned for the first 300 years, after the Ascension of Christ, doesn't mean what Paul and Peter established did not remain teaching wise. Otherwise, Christians in that area would not have been persecuted if there were no Christians and no one teaching about Christ.
Today, a Bishop would be known as preachers/evangelists. In essence, when we witness to someone, we are acting in the role of Bishop/preacher/evangelist. The sinner is being taught about Christ from us the same as going to Church and being taught by a preacher/evangelist.
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Fellow posters on this thread,
We are moving in a few days and it is taking a lot out of me. I do not have the time nor energy to continue on this thread and I apologize for that. I can do a little posting on threads not so time intensive but this one takes more out of me than I can give it.
We are moving in a few days and it is taking a lot out of me. I do not have the time nor energy to continue on this thread and I apologize for that. I can do a little posting on threads not so time intensive but this one takes more out of me than I can give it.
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(Amo 8:2) And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit. Then said the LORD unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.
Just throwing that out there in case you weren't aware.
Just throwing that out there in case you weren't aware.
I think Amos prophesied long before Jeremiah.
Jeremiah 31:31 See, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new agreement with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.
I suppose that could refer to spiritual Israel, but then it's interesting that spiritual Israel would be divided into the people (or, House) of Israel and the people of Judah.
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In a way it's not really true that the new covenant is new because Abraham BELIEVED God and it was counted to him as righteousness. He was saved just like we are today, by faith in Christ. Christ was IN THE CHURCH in the wilderness.
The new covenant principles were around back in their day but it wasn't published in covenant form, it was actually hidden. Any ungodly Jew back then could have been saved just like Abraham was saved but the word of God never took root in their lives. The offer is still good for them even today though. All they have to do is believe God and they will be counted as righteous.
The new covenant principles were around back in their day but it wasn't published in covenant form, it was actually hidden. Any ungodly Jew back then could have been saved just like Abraham was saved but the word of God never took root in their lives. The offer is still good for them even today though. All they have to do is believe God and they will be counted as righteous.
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yes, I agree with what you're saying.
also, and a lot of people might disagree with this, the events may not be in chronological order.
this taking place before 13 :7, I think
Zechariah 12:10 I will pour on the house of David, and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they will look to me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for his only son, and will grieve bitterly for him, as one grieves for his firstborn.
or maybe the prophesied events do take place in order but there are layers of fulfillment.
also, and a lot of people might disagree with this, the events may not be in chronological order.
this taking place before 13 :7, I think
Zechariah 12:10 I will pour on the house of David, and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they will look to me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for his only son, and will grieve bitterly for him, as one grieves for his firstborn.
or maybe the prophesied events do take place in order but there are layers of fulfillment.
Romans 11:25 For I don't desire you to be ignorant, brothers, of this mystery, so that you won't be wise in your own conceits, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
well, again, it looks like we're just reading it differently.
as I read it, in the passage above, isreal is spoken of as separate from the gentiles.
a partial hardening is happening to Israel, so it must be physical Israel, not believers.
it looks to me like this partial hardening continues "until the fullness of the gentiles has come in."
if that has happened, then the partial hardening to Israel should be removed.
I think then that Jews would be as open (or as closed) as your average gentile to the gospel.
but I'm not seeing that happening.
maybe it is and I'm just not seeing it?
well, again, it looks like we're just reading it differently.
as I read it, in the passage above, isreal is spoken of as separate from the gentiles.
a partial hardening is happening to Israel, so it must be physical Israel, not believers.
it looks to me like this partial hardening continues "until the fullness of the gentiles has come in."
if that has happened, then the partial hardening to Israel should be removed.
I think then that Jews would be as open (or as closed) as your average gentile to the gospel.
but I'm not seeing that happening.
maybe it is and I'm just not seeing it?