The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,824
8,624
113
The Church is the "Twelve Tribes" of Israel, Just as James 1:1 states
In all of the Bible the 12 tribes only refer to Israel. National ethnic Israel. The group that James is addressing are in fact Israelites who converted to Christianity, the Diaspora. Converting to Christianity did not alter their lineage in the slightest.
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
Dispensationalist are SCREWED up big time! They believe there are four or five different gospels and each gospel applies to a specific group of people at a specific time.
Gospel means good news.

Did God reveal the same exact good news throughout OT and NT?
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,824
8,624
113
Just a couple of chapters later, Jesus told the high priest that HEREAFTER his crucifixtion, he would see the Son of man SITTING ON THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING IN THE CLOUDS of heaven.

Mat 26:63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Was Jesus lying? Does hereafter mean 2000 years AFTER the high priest was dead? Does Jesus have to wait 2000 years to sit at the right hand of the Father?

If this isn't the resurrection then explain to me HOW it's not the resurrection.
How? When was the last time you saw a glorified body come out of a grave? Never. And there hasn't been one witnessed in about 2000 years.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,376
113
Well Jesus was an abomination to the Jews according to the bible and Jesus also left Jerusalem desolate according to the bible. So it is accurate to say that killing the abomination (Jesus) is exactly why Jerusalem was left desolate. There is no greater abomination than killing the Son of God that came to save you.
How you been doing KJV1611!

Let's look at the scriptures in question:

Daniel 9:27
"And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation, until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him"

Matthew 24:15-18
"So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. And let no one in the field return for his cloak.

Daniel 9:27 describes the seven year covenant with the abomination being set up in the middle of the seven years. In Matthew 24:15, Jesus quotes Daniel 9:27 regarding the abomination saying "when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination of desolation.' In this scripture, Jesus in referring to the abomination saying "when you see" is speaking in the 2nd person, which could not be in reference to himself as being the abomination. In addition, Jesus is warning the reader that when they see the abomination set up in the holy place to flee out into the wilderness, which is the desolation. Jesus is not warning the reader about himself.

Another reason that Jesus could not be the abomination stems from the meaning of the word 'bdelugma' which is described below:

HELPS Word-studies
946
bdélygma (from 948 /bdelýssō, derived from bdēō, "to reek with stench") – properly, what emits a foul odor and hence is disgustingly abhorrent (abominable, detestable); (figuratively) moral horror as a stench to God (like when people refuse to hear and obey His voice).

Therefore, since the word bdelugma/abomination is an offence against God, Jesus then could not be the abomination spoken of.

In addition, the setting up of the abomination is what causes the desolation, i.e. the emptying of Jerusalem and Judea. This event is synonymous withy Revelation 12:6, 14 where the woman/Israel flees out into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God where she is cared for during the 1260 days, which is that last 3 1/2 years of the seven year period.

In conclusion, Jesus is not the abomination, nor is the scripture referring to Jesus leaving Jerusalem desolate, but is speaking about the desolation of Jerusalem and Judea that will take place once that abomination has been set up. You really need to pay attention to details of scripture. We also know that the abomination is not referring to a person, but to an idolatrous object, like an image. We can deduce this from what the angel told Daniel:

"And from the time the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation set up, there will be 1,290 days.

The words 'set up' would infer an object and not a person. Try doing some actual studying, because what you posted above is very sloppy exegesis by not paying any attention to the details of scripture.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,824
8,624
113
What do you call the Old Testament saints that rose with Jesus?
How do you categorize the two witnesses of revelation 11? Who are they what is their identity?

I asked because as I'm keeping score you said that:
-King David was a priest
-Moses was a Christian
-Christians are Israelites
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,496
113
In all of the Bible the 12 tribes only refer to Israel. National ethnic Israel. The group that James is addressing are in fact Israelites who converted to Christianity, the Diaspora. Converting to Christianity did not alter their lineage in the slightest.
Your claim is false, James was addressing the Church as

"The Twelve Tribes Scattered Abroad"
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,496
113
Do you believe that, during the Tribulation, this verse applies with regards to salvation?

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Those seen below represents the "Church" on earth in the tribulation.

Revelation 14:12KJV
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 13:9-10 below also shows God's divine protection of the Church present on earth during the tribulation.

Revelation 13:9-10KJV
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,496
113
How do you categorize the two witnesses of revelation 11? Who are they what is their identity?

I asked because as I'm keeping score you said that:
-King David was a priest
-Moses was a Christian
-Christians are Israelites
Enoch/Elijah prophets returned, with literal plagues upon a literal world.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,824
8,624
113
Your claim is false, James was addressing the Church as

"The Twelve Tribes Scattered Abroad"
Absolutely 100% wrong. Do your research before spouting off error.
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
Those seen below represents the "Church" on earth in the tribulation.

Revelation 14:12KJV
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 13:9-10 below also shows God's divine protection of the Church present on earth during the tribulation.

Revelation 13:9-10KJV
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Did you answer my question somewhere inside there?

Is salvation during the Tribulation dependent on both faith of Jesus AND keeping the commandments of God?
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,496
113
Did you answer my question somewhere inside there?

Is salvation during the Tribulation dependent on both faith of Jesus AND keeping the commandments of God?
Is salvation presently dependent upon both?
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
Is salvation presently dependent upon both?
No, Romans 4:5:

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,496
113
No, Romans 4:5:

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
You answered your own question, good job :)
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
You answered your own question, good job :)
So how would you reconcile revelations 14:12?

Salvation under the tribulation will no longer based on romans to Philemon. There is the antichrist and the mark of the beast, which are not present during this period
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,496
113
So how would you reconcile revelations 14:12?

Salvation under the tribulation is no longer based on romans to Philemon
I strongly disagree, it's your "Opinion" and nothing more.

Salvation after the cross of calvary and resurrection is no different from today or to the last day of earths existence.
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
I strongly disagree, it's your "Opinion" and nothing more.

Salvation after the cross of calvary and resurrection is no different from today orthe last day of earths existence.
So do you think you are reading revelation 14:12 literally, or you are changing what it means?
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
The following has not occurred. Rome was in total control. There were no rumors of wars at that time. And nation did not rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
There’s never been a time in history when there weren’t wars and rumors of wars, it’s part of life on earth. And the Jewish nation did rise up against the Christian nation and tried to annihilate them. And the Roman nation rose up against the Jews and annihilated them and according to the book of Joel the northern army came against the Jews.

But none of that is nearly as important as the fact that Jesus was talking to Peter and James and John and Andrew. THEY were the ones that were going to be delivered up to the councils and be beaten in the synagogues.

How do you take something so blatantly obvious and twist it into a dispensational fantasy?

Do you know what the word you means.... it ain’t you or me or anyone living 2000 years later. You was Peter and James and John and Andrew. You know, the ones of THAT GENERATION.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,496
113
So do you think you are reading revelation 14:12 literally, or you are changing what it means?
I believe you are changing its meanings.

I have the faith of Jesus and keep the commandments of God.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,496
113
There’s never been a time in history when there weren’t wars and rumors of wars, it’s part of life on earth. And the Jewish nation did rise up against the Christian nation and tried to annihilate them. And the Roman nation rose up against the Jews and annihilated them and according to the book of Joel the northern army came against the Jews.

But none of that is nearly as important as the fact that Jesus was talking to Peter and James and John and Andrew. THEY were the ones that were going to be delivered up to the councils and be beaten in the synagogues.

How do you take something so blatantly obvious and twist it into a dispensational fantasy?

Do you know what the word you means.... it ain’t you or me or anyone living 2000 years later. You was Peter and James and John and Andrew. You know, the ones of THAT GENERATION.
You accuse another of twisting something that is blatantly obvious, when you yourself are guilty of the same.

In post #1417 You openly deny that the holy bible shows any evidence of a "Second Coming" of Jesus Christ including the verses below.

Matthew 24:29-31KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
I believe you are changing its meanings.

I have the faith of Jesus and keep the commandments of God.
That is not what Romans 4:5 is saying correct?

Unless you are one of those who define keeping commandments as part of believing, instead of a work?