The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

[Dan_473]

Well, since most people today do not understand the book, there is a problem. I think that John saw the same vision Daniel and others saw. He did not choose which things the Lord would show him but the Lord did show him the same things. Do you see what I mean?

sure!
does it make sense that God would show visions of things that would be familiar to the people?
the people know about lions, those appear in visions in the Bible.
but the people would have had no experience of polar bears,
and those don't appear in visions.

I assure you that was no literary devise.

on what basis do you assure me?
does the bible not contain any literary devices?

When he said he "saw" he means he observed with his eyes.

I think he also says he was in the spirit, so maybe not physical eyes.

This is not fiction.

I agree that it's not fiction, but it may be using figurative language.

If that message had not started with "I saw a vision..." it had nothing of significance to communicate because it was not a teaching.

sorry, I don't follow what you're saying here.

When a man or woman tells the members that they had a vision from God and it concerned all of them, there are special rules that apply. One, the others need to evaluate it in light of what they know God has said. Two, it needs to register in their own spirit as the Lord. Three, it has to be fulfilled in real life if it is a statment about the future. To tell the church you have a vision from God is to require them to judge it and you, to some degree. Those people knew what it meant to make that claim.

right,
1 Corinthians 14:29 Let the prophets speak, two or three, and let the others judge.

He did not claim to have a vision from God of a city on a hill. Prophesy and teaching are not the same thing to the speaker and to the recepients.

I was using the situation of where Jesus talks about a city on a hill being impossible to hide as an example of figurative language.
it is not literally, physically true that a city on a hill cannot be hidden.
but that figurative language does communicate an important spiritual truth!

 

[DorothyMae]

What is aok?

An Insurance company in Germany.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Only the "Remnant" elect Jew will be saved, the vast "Majority" will be blind to salvation.

Romans 11:7KJV
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

"And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed in the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head."

Who is the Woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars?

"Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”


When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”

Sun = Jacob

Moon = Wife/wives

Twelve Stars = Jacobs son's


"And the woman fled into the wilderness, where God had prepared a place for her to be nourished for 1,260 days."

Therefore, the nation of Israel that are in the land when that abomination is set up in the holy place within the temple, will all flee out into the wilderness to that place that God will have prepared for her/Israel.

Israel fleeing out into the desert is synonymous with the event of Matthew 24:15-22

"So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. And let no one in the field return for his cloak."

"How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short."

 

[Dino246]

By all accounts the so-called dispensationalists utterly crushed and annihilated the preterists and the amillennialists on this thread.

One does not win a debate with bluster, insults, and derision, nor with mere claims of victory.

This never was a battle; it was a discussion founded on deep bias, fallacy, and outright error.

 

[Ahwatukee]

No such thing as a pre-trib rapture, the Church will be present on this earth during the 3.5 year tribulation.

What you said above is a lie straight from Satan!

When someone believes in Christ, they are credited with His righteousness and reconciled to God, i.e. brought back into a right relationship with Him.

Jesus took upon himself God's wrath which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely and are therefore not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath. Yet, you have God punishing the righteous with the wicked. There is a big difference between the trials and persecutions that Jesus said we would have because of our faith in Him vs. the coming wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

From the beginning of the church until this current time, believers have experienced the trials and persecutions that Jesus said we would have, which come at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkness. In opposition, what is coming will be God's direct wrath poured out upon the entire earth via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues that the two witnesses bring. It is God's coming wrath that believers will not be exposed to and that because Jesus already satisfied it.

You and others are not looking for the blessed hope, but are first looking for God's wrath. Regarding this, if the church was to go through God's wrath the same as the wicked, then God would be punishing the righteous with the wicked, which as we learned from Sodom and Gomorrah and Abraham's discussion with the Lord, He does not punish the righteous with the wicked. Since God's wrath will come upon the whole entire earth, then the Lord's promise of coming to take us back to the Father's house will take place prior to said wrath, which is initiated with the opening of the first seal.

In further support, in Paul's detailed account of the Lord resurrecting the dead and changing the living and calling us up, he said, "Therefore comfort one another with these words." Consequently, if the church was to go through God's wrath, it would be no bless hope, nor would believers be able to comfort one another with those words and that because you have us going through the same wrath that the wicked will be going through.

 

[Nehemiah6]

This never was a battle; it was a discussion founded on deep bias, fallacy, and outright error.

And I would call this statement BALONEY.

 

[cv5]

One does not win a debate with bluster, insults, and derision, nor with mere claims of victory.

This never was a battle; it was a discussion founded on deep bias, fallacy, and outright error.

Oh it WAS a battle. In precisely the same way Jesus, Paul, Peter and Jude were battling the false doctrines in that day. Something that the liberals of this day also reject.

 

[Dino246]

And I would call this statement BALONEY.

Then do something useful with it, like making a sandwich.

 

[Dino246]

Oh it WAS a battle. In precisely the same way Jesus, Paul, Peter and Jude were battling the false doctrines in that day. Something that the liberals of this day also reject.

Are you calling me a liberal now?

 

[biker]

thanks for the references!

I don't doubt the John was alive in the 90s, or that the book of Revelation was written at about that time.

do you accept everything that irenaeus said as true?

for example, in that same book 3 chapter 3,
"2. Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops."
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103303.htm

I definitely read it carefully to not just assume. But the account towards John from Irenaeus is also a similar account to that which John's own Disciple Polycarp gave. Therefore, it was not just assuming, but having 2 direct accounts of the same event makes it more reliable. Much like the 4 Gospels in that same respects in giving us the life of Christ while on Earth.

 

[KJV1611]

By all accounts the so-called dispensationalists utterly crushed and annihilated the preterists and the amillennialists on this thread. A humiliating defeat but not all unexpected, but rather quite inevitable. Frankly the quality and quantity of the posts of the so-called dispensationalists and millennialists was amazing and outstanding.

Do you know of any scriptures that say we are disembodied spirits when we go to heaven?

 

[crossnote]

What about the Old Testament saints that were resurrected and taken to heaven with Jesus, are they disembodied spirits also?

I'm not trying to avoid your question, but it has little if anything to do with the 'absurdity and heresy of preterism'. Are you a preterist?

 

[crossnote]

Well that’s pretty demeaning but I’ll give a civil answer.

Revelation is a deeply Jewish book, perhaps the most Jewish of all. It is the divorce proceedings between God and the faithless harlot Israel. The warnings Moses gave in Leviticus 26 if they were faithless come to pass. After that proceedings, the Kingdom of God no longer resided in political, racial or religious Israel.

The depictions are found in the OT and I’m told nothing new is there but i’ve no time to check this out myself. The language symbolism and metaphors are deeply Jewish with examples in the OT.

So you are wrong.

Tell me more...

Deuteronomy 30:1-6 (KJV) And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of the multitude of men. The breaker is come up before them: they have broken up, and have passed through the gate, and are gone out by it: and their king shall pass before them, and the LORD on the head of them.
(Mic 2:12-13)

If Israel is a whore, God will still take her back as depicted in Hosea. His gifts and calling are irrevocable. Rom 11.

 

[KJV1611]

I'm not trying to avoid your question, but it has little if anything to do with the 'absurdity and heresy of preterism'. Are you a preterist?

You're good cross. Yes, my argument has everything to do with this topic. As proof, you're still waiting for a future resurrection when the resurrection already started at the resurrection of Christ. All of the Old Testament saints are "the dead in Christ", They were raised from the dead and are in heaven with glorified bodies right now. The bible is very clear on this but dispensationalist reject it.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You're good cross. Yes, my argument has everything to do with this topic. As proof, you're still waiting for a future resurrection when the resurrection already started at the resurrection of Christ. All of the Old Testament saints are "the dead in Christ", They were raised from the dead and are in heaven with glorified bodies right now. The bible is very clear on this but dispensationalist reject it.

Just poppin' in for a minute...

Why then does Paul put it in the "FUTURE tense"?

"...[ https://biblehub.com/greek/anaste_sontai_450.htm ] SHALL RISE [future tense - V-FIM-3P] first" - 1Th4:16

https://biblehub.com/text/1_thessalonians/4-16.htm


[and why did Matt27:52-53 say "MANY bodies of the saints which slept arose..." instead of saying they all did]

 

[crossnote]

You're good cross. Yes, my argument has everything to do with this topic. As proof, you're still waiting for a future resurrection when the resurrection already started at the resurrection of Christ. All of the Old Testament saints are "the dead in Christ", They were raised from the dead and are in heaven with glorified bodies right now. The bible is very clear on this but dispensationalist reject it.

2 Timothy 2:16-18 (KJV) But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

 

[KJV1611]

2 Timothy 2:16-18 (KJV) But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

I didn't say the resurrection had already passed, I said it's already STARTED. It's continuous. As soon as a believer dies he gets a glorified body and goes to heaven.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

 

[crossnote]

I didn't say the resurrection had already passed, I said it's already STARTED. It's continuous. As soon as a believer dies he gets a glorified body and goes to heaven.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Thanks but I'll follow the advice Paul gave. You truly are confused. Now we have an 'ongoing' resurrection.

 

[KJV1611]

Just poppin' in for a minute...

Why then does Paul put it in the "FUTURE tense"?

"...[ https://biblehub.com/greek/anaste_sontai_450.htm ] SHALL RISE [future tense - V-FIM-3P] first" - 1Th4:16

https://biblehub.com/text/1_thessalonians/4-16.htm


[and why did Matt27:52-53 say "MANY bodies of the saints which slept arose..." instead of saying they all did]

Because it's meant to be a mystery, something that is meant to be hidden from the world but revealed to those who KEEP HIS WORDS.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

In your view Christians alive today are PREVENTING them which are asleep.

 

[KJV1611]

Thanks but I'll follow the advice Paul gave. You truly are confused. Now we have an 'ongoing' resurrection.

Have it your way.