The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

[biker]

Even if it was a single Church Father making the claim and many confirming it, why would you think they are wrong about it?

You act as if they made it up.

And why would they make it up?

 

[Truth7t7]

We agree pretty much on this point. ^



Jesus spoke of it throughout His entire earthly ministry (first advent)... every time that He spoke of:

--"the kingdom OF THE heavenS"
--"the age [SINGULAR] to come"
--"the wedding FEAST/SUPPER"
--the "G347 - 'shall sit down' [around a table/at a meal]"
--the TWO times He referred to "RETURN" [re: Himself], Lk19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN," and Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 [and their parallels], "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." (i.e. as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom), THEN the meal!
--the times He told "the 12" they would "sit on 12 thrones, judgING the 12 tribes of Israel"
--when He referred to "in the regeneration when..." (that ^ reference [one of them])... "when the Son of man shall sit on the throne of His glory" [<--this being His EARTHLY "throne" upon His RETURN to the earth (there will be NO "goats" in Heaven, for example, Matt25:31-34 [parallel parts of Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50])]
--ALL "Son of man cometh/coming/shall come/etc" references (referring to His RETURN to the earth; NOT "our Rapture") to "judge and to reign"
--many more references...


Up till the time He spoke His Olivet Discourse (and INCLUDING IT), He had NOT YET spoken to them ANYTHING about anything else but [what we call] "the promised AND PROPHESIED *earthly* Millennial Kingdom".



It is man's imagination that believes any and all of the above "contexts" ^ refer to "UP IN Heaven" INSTEAD, which they do not.

Try all you can?

No 1,000 year kingdom on this earth, where Jesus is hanging out with mortal humans found in scripture, a fact!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Try all you can?

No 1,000 year kingdom on this earth, where Jesus is hanging out with mortal humans found in scripture, a fact!

Take "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER," for example... it IS the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (at least its inauguration). It is located ON THE EARTH. "We" ['the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY'] will be RETURNING "WITH [G4862] Him" (as ALREADY-WED) *FOR* the wedding FEAST/SUPPER, i.e. the EARTHLY MK age. But in the contexts where this is spoken of, those "saints" [involved, who will be located on the earth, at that point in the chronology (*their* having come to faith IN/DURING the trib yrs, FOLLOWING "our Rapture")] will have never lifted off the earth, they are present THERE upon His "RETURN" there. (I provided Lk12:36-37,38,39,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal! [aka the EARTHLY MK age].)

NO "Bride/Wife [singular]" is being spoken of in any of those passages about "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER".

He is not coming to "MARRY" the "10 [or even the 5] VirginS [PLURAL]," for example ( ). He will be RETURNING in that scene FOR "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER. They [the 5 Virgins/Bridesmaids (PLURAL)] will "go in with [G3326 - meta - accompanying] Him into the wedding FEAST/SUPPER," aka the earthly MK age. [DISTINCT from the "WITH [G4862 - syn - UNION-with/IDENTIFICATION-with] Him" that pertains to US/'the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," aka ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]," of whom the 2Cor11:2 verse SOLELY (and SINGULARLY) applies.])

Same for the other "wedding FEAST/SUPPER" passages. None are referring to "the Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" and all are referring to His "RETURN" to the earth (where those particular "saints" will still be located, having come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture"), and FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age (aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [on the earth]").

 

[Guojing]

Try all you can?

No 1,000 year kingdom on this earth, where Jesus is hanging out with mortal humans found in scripture, a fact!

Would Zechariah 8 convinced you?

3 Thus saith the Lord; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the Lord of hosts the holy mountain.


4 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age.


5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof.


6 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the Lord of hosts.


7 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country;


8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.

 

[Kolistus]

The main problem relating to this is in selective interpretation and unintentianal/deliberate amnesia when it comes to other related
Gospel passages that wont fit into whatever the reader wants them to say. Before the discussion in Matthew Chapter 24 Jesus attacked the Religious leadership. The Disciples then drew his attention to the impressive Temple Structure and told them that not one stone
would be left on another that wont be thrown down. His Disciples asked him when will these things be, the sign of his coming, and
the end of the age. He answered by combining events that will happen both in their generation and in the distant future. He knew
what would happen both in 70AD and before his second coming. Many of the events in their generation and the last days would be
very similar and others wouldnt. What is known as full preterism tries to fit everything into one time frame. There are partial preterists that recognise that there will be a second coming followed by a final judgement. Unfortunately literalists fail to realise that Jewish understanding of scripture also recognises that there are also passages that use symbol, metaphor and poetry as well as literalism
both then and now.

Could you explain this part more, I am interested. What are some events that would be similar and what wouldnt?

 

[cv5]

I believe the 1260 days in Rev 11:3 and 42months in Rev 13:5 are "Parallel" in a future event when the literal two witnesses, prophets returned Enoch/Elijah who never saw death, they will stand day for day against the future Antichrist of Daniel, Little Horn, Man Of Sin, The Beast, pick your name.

It will be a 3.5 year remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, water to blood, all plagues as often as they will.

So you are now retracting your earlier statement that you have to wait for prophecy to be fulfilled to understand it? Because such a statement is patently absurd.

 

[cv5]

Childish non response

Not if I'm right.

 

[cv5]

Try all you can?

No 1,000 year kingdom on this earth, where Jesus is hanging out with mortal humans found in scripture, a fact!

DivineWatermark tried to prove to prove the millennium. And then succeeded gloriously with his superlative illustrious impeccable irrefutable exegesis. A feat of which you are so far utterly incapable.

 

[DorothyMae]

Jer 30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

It's about the Jews serving Jesus their king whom God will RAISE UP unto them. That happened 2000 years ago.

Its about the believers doing so whatever their race is, whosoever will, that is.

 

[cv5]

That was my conclusion as well. I draw that from the one who restrains is taken out of the way or no longer restrains...I don't recall precisely which verse it is. I just assumed that "the rapture" takes place at that moment...although I am uncertain why I felt that at the time. Probably because it just doesn't seem right to me that believers be here with his presence revealed.

Can you post the scripture references for your conclusion. It was simply something that just clicked one night in a very unpleasant moment. I'd love to share it, but the inspiration and what it felt like was quite grueling...it was like a glimpse of what is being restrained and what would occur if I were to remain and why there indeed is a "mission complete" moment.

I have a pretty big heart and judgement is pretty scary. Almost like, "are you sure Lord? ...maybe if one more word was spoken or just a little more time..." but that moment made it pretty clear to me there will be a line. A time where grace is past. I still think a tiny trickle of an opportunity of grace will be available but perhaps that's just idealism in me of a final altar call in a message of wrath revealed just prior to eternal death, which is what I see the 3.5 year testimony as.

The missionary in me just doesn't sit with a message only as a testimony against someone...unless it has a purpose to convict however small/narrow the application.

Anyway, lmk what references you draw that from...I'm not the best at pinpointing specific references.

Hello again and good morning. It is quite impossible (For me anyways) to do justice to a useful treatment of the rapture on a message board. The problem is it becomes very disjointed on a message board and incoherent. I commend you to Chuck Missler. Though I do not agree with everything that Chuck says his treatment of the rapture (and time eschatology) is superior and cannot be improved upon. Chuck is the master of end time eschatology.
The big advantage to YouTube videos is that you can rewinding review rewinding review until it sinks in. So here you go!

 

[DorothyMae]

sure if you insist the tribulation is only 7 yrs. But the tribulation is not only 7 years. We are still in the tribulation so Justin Trudeau's disdain for christians is part of the tribulation.

You’re joking right? Surly some unknown’s distain for Christians doesn’t classify as a “great tribulation” does it? Who is he anyway?

 

[cv5]

Jer 30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

It's about the Jews serving Jesus their king whom God will RAISE UP unto them. That happened 2000 years ago.

Wrong again! David is going to be resurrected to an earthy Kingdom, as are the 12 apostles.

Matt 19:28
And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man shall sit down upon His throne of glory, you having followed Me, you also will sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

https://biblehub.com/greek/2919.htm

https://biblehub.com/greek/3824.htm

3824 /paliggenesía ("renewal, rebirth") is used twice in the NT referring to: a) the re-birth of physical creation at Christ's return (Advent), which inaugurates His millennial kingdom (Mt 19:28; cf. Ro 8:18-25); and b) the re-birth all believers experience at conversion (Tit 3:5).

 

[Truth7t7]

Would Zechariah 8 convinced you?

3 Thus saith the Lord; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the Lord of hosts the holy mountain.
4 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age.
5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof.
6 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the Lord of hosts.
7 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country;
8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.

Zechariah 8 is Eternal New Jerusalem, just as Zechariah 14 is Eternal New Jerusalem

 

[Absolutely]

The first Jews were redeemed at the exact same time everybody else on the planet were redeemed... at the resurrection of Christ.

Rev 14

Refutes that

 

[Absolutely]

God's covenant people are now and always have been the spiritual children of Abraham.

The ot is THE OLD COVENANT

2 COVENANTS

 

[DorothyMae]

What you have said describes the Church. But you have failed to say anything about redeemed and restored Israel.

This was not addressed earlier. Israel was redeemed and restored to God’s people from the time of Jesus’ ministry to the fall of Jerusalem. When else?

 

[DorothyMae]

Rev 14

Refutes that

The first Jews were not redeemed at the resurrection?? So the disciples were not redeemed?

 

[Guojing]

Zechariah 8 is Eternal New Jerusalem, just as Zechariah 14 is Eternal New Jerusalem

If you are referring to heaven, the last verse of Zechariah 8 had gentiles asking a Jew to bring them to Jerusalem to be saved so that cannot be it.

 

[DorothyMae]

I agree that preterism falls short of sound hermeneutics when put to the test on every point. However eschatology is one area that we must extend grace and patience as each person seeks to understand the scriptures for themselves and this takes time. Never allow someones views on preterism, historicism, futureism, or amillennialism, cause you to consider them an unbeliever, or a false brother. We see through a glass darkly. When you call a preterist a heretic it suggest that you think they are not saved, as if their view on eschatology must be correct for salvation. What if you are wrong about your interpretation on passages that are difficult to understand. Are you then a heretic? We allow much more grace for ourselves than we do others when it comes to the word heresy and heretic. I enjoy reading presentations on why someone believes a scripture should be interpreted a certain way. You will not persuade me that a particular view is wrong by telling me it is heresy. You will persuade by telling me what that particular scripture DOES mean, and doing a good job of using the rules of heremeneutics to make your case. There is obviously a reason why born again believers differ on these topics and listening to each other present their reasons is necessary to understanding why without judging a mans character or setting yourself up as judge over his intellect.

Your first statement is a harsh judgement on the intellect and/or character of those you disagree with despite your going on telling us not to do what you just did. It would have been more convincing if you hadn’t so strongly judged your opponent before you encourage others not to do so.

 

[Guojing]

I agree that preterism falls short of sound hermeneutics when put to the test on every point. However eschatology is one area that we must extend grace and patience as each person seeks to understand the scriptures for themselves and this takes time. Never allow someones views on preterism, historicism, futureism, or amillennialism, cause you to consider them an unbeliever, or a false brother. We see through a glass darkly. When you call a preterist a heretic it suggest that you think they are not saved, as if their view on eschatology must be correct for salvation. What if you are wrong about your interpretation on passages that are difficult to understand. Are you then a heretic? We allow much more grace for ourselves than we do others when it comes to the word heresy and heretic. I enjoy reading presentations on why someone believes a scripture should be interpreted a certain way. You will not persuade me that a particular view is wrong by telling me it is heresy. You will persuade by telling me what that particular scripture DOES mean, and doing a good job of using the rules of heremeneutics to make your case. There is obviously a reason why born again believers differ on these topics and listening to each other present their reasons is necessary to understanding why without judging a mans character or setting yourself up as judge over his intellect.

well said!