Not By Works

azamzimtoti · May 27, 2020

Quote the full text:

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Another point in which both Peter and James should have been aware if they knew the scriptures as well as Paul a trained Pharisee should have knowb and understood is this:

(Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people)

There is no way this law would include circumcision, purifying laws, vows, sabbaths etc.

Guojing · May 27, 2020

azamzimtoti said:

Quote the full text:

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Another point in which both Peter and James should have been aware if they knew the scriptures as well as Paul a trained Pharisee should have knowb and understood is this:

(Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people)

There is no way this law would include circumcision, purifying laws, vows, sabbaths etc.

Okay, you quote the full text there, and you still don't agree that it is saying Peter found some of those revelations from Paul hard to be understood?

azamzimtoti · May 27, 2020

Guojing said:

I don't think we can be certain, but he is pointing out who and what they would do with Paul's writings.

Guojing · May 27, 2020

azamzimtoti said:

Alright then.

I do understand why you would find it difficult to conclude that, due to your "It is only ONE gospel for all time" doctrine.

I mean it would be tough to accept that Peter found Paul's gospel hard to understand, if there was ever going to be only one right?

azamzimtoti · May 27, 2020

Guojing said:

He never stated he found "Paul's" gospel hard to understand, he was writing about those who may have been misunderstanding. He's writing to the dispersed tribes who would have fallen under the law.

azamzimtoti · May 27, 2020

Let's look at one misunderstanding of Paul that he himself speaks of:

(Rom 3:8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just)

VCO · May 27, 2020

Bbrdrd said:

Don't it bother you that your bad theology just creates multiple contradictions, while our true theology does not create any
contradictions ? ? ? AND SINCE WHEN IS IT WRONG, TO PROVE YOUR INTERPRETATION IS CORRECT, by Comparing Scripture to Scripture?

2 Peter 1:19-21 (NKJV)
19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts;
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

2 Timothy 3:14-17 (HCSB)
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and firmly believed. You know those who taught you,
15 and you know that from childhood you have known the sacred Scriptures, which are able to give you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for rebuking, for correcting, for training in righteousness,
17 so that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

We are taught to Compare Scripture to Scripture, to validate that we have the TRUE MEANING. And anytime we think we found a Contradiction, WE KNOW WE MADE A MISTAKE IN INTERPRETING THOSE VERSES.

OneOfHis · May 27, 2020

azamzimtoti said:

Not before God.

Works can only show as EVIDENCE (not proof) before MAN.

Our justification has ZERO to do with works of righteousness which we do.

James knew this. James was rebuking nominal Christians who talk the talk but don't walk the walk, not helping in practical ways and being partial to rich folk...

Jesus used one principal that was similar with the rich young man who didn't feel safe like nominal Christians who see grace as their free sin ticket, he felt safe because he thought he upheld the law...🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

Jesus didn't ask him to give his wealth because wealth is bad... look at job or david...

He exposed where the young mans heart was.

The work of giving the wealth wouldn't save him.... or aid in his salvation one bit...

The offering of Isaac was mentioned (james 2:21) was part of the main point being JUST LIKE RAHAB that your FAITH ought to be SEEN by your works

Believers know it is God who saves us.

That is a separate issue from appearing to not have been made a new creature.

You can not prove to me you are saved. It is impossible.

But you can certainly behave in ways which make you look like you don't know God or love Him. (or vise versa)

A member of Christs body which is VOID of any sort of work of righteousness, a loveless walk, would before man who can not see the heart.... seem to be a faker...

Peter denied Jesus -> lack of a righteous work and it was seen before man as lack of faith. (not justified as a believer before man in this instance... unlike abraham or rahab in their listed examples)

In james there is teaching AGAINST a loveless walk(lack of righteous works) and to SHOW the love of God in us as witnesses. (His body)

"
18

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. "

James was not teaching faith + works salvation.

He was talking about how a faith without works is worthless and how can you even claim to have faith if you can't back it up...
(not that you need to back it up to be saved)

He is well aware of sapplings not yet showing much fruit, and our brothers and sisters who may stumble or not be doing as well as they ought to... he knows their only hope is Gods mercy just like his only Hope is Gods mercy

You can't just throw books out of the bible you don't like...

Guojing · May 27, 2020

OneOfHis said:

According to James 2:14, if faith alone without works is worthless, can that faith saves you?

OneOfHis · May 27, 2020

Guojing said:

Well can someone be saved and have no "works" to show ...

Yes.

Saved freely by grace appart from works.

The man on the cross beside Jesus wasn't saved because his faith had works along side it..

Peter was still saved despite His lack of works when before man, he denied Jesus... many times....

If a man lost the use of his legs, arms and mouth... he can still know he is saved by the blood of Jesus... even if his faith came after the loss of his bodily functions...

Guojing · May 27, 2020

OneOfHis said:

I agree with you that Paul is saying we are saved freely by grace apart from works.

But I am asking you what James was saying in that verse. If one reads what he said literally in his chapter 2, would his answer be yes too?

EternalFire · May 27, 2020

OneOfHis said:

I encourage you to re-examine your understanding of faith. I’ve been blessed in my understanding of it by this teaching from David Pawson.

OneOfHis · May 27, 2020

Guojing said:

James didn't just say a verse, he wrote a whole letter.

Yes, he is aware we are saved by grace through faith.

OneOfHis · May 27, 2020

EternalFire said:

Ive seen far too much objectively incorrect doctrine from you to watch a video you share.
Maybe you don't remember but I do.

Guojing · May 27, 2020

OneOfHis said:

I suppose you meant "he is aware we are saved by grace through faith alone, apart from works"?

How do you conclude that from what he wrote in his epistle?

EternalFire · May 27, 2020

OneOfHis said:

May God bless you.

OneOfHis · May 27, 2020

Guojing said:

#138,028
Is a good start.

I've done more verse by verse related break downs before but never with someone who believes scripture goes against itself....

Do you think either james or paul was wrong? .... uninspired....

OneOfHis · May 27, 2020

EternalFire said:

You too man....

I hope you see exactly what He wants you to see...

And that you trust in, and are covered by the righteousness of Jesus when the time comes that we need to be spotless...

Ruby123 · May 27, 2020

Morning everyone!!

Guojing · May 27, 2020

OneOfHis said:

That post you referred to had you saying that James "was talking about how a faith without works is worthless and how can you even claim to have faith if you can't back it up... "

To you, James is saying that faith without works is "worthless" correct?

So I am curious how you manage to conclude from that, that James feel that that worthless faith can actually save a person.

Did you conclude that from reading the entire letter of James?

Not By Works

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Senior Member

Well-known member

Banned

Well-known member

Banned

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Banned

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Ruby123

Guest

Banned