Prophecy, it’s not what most think.

Chester · May 19, 2020

Really? So then he (Dave L) does believe you can understand prophecy? But on another thread he wrote:

Did you know all of this is a false prophecy? Jesus teaches that prophecy cannot be understood until after fulfillment. It only gives a few dots. It is the fulfillment that connects them. So you are speculating what might happen and affirming it will happen.

I had better get away from here! My head is swimming! Now did I mean that literally, or physically, or spiritually? . . . . !!!!!!!!!!!! Good night!

Diakonos · May 19, 2020

John146 said:

The reason I asked that question is because It is another question Dave has ignored. I asked it 24 days ago....still waiting for his response...

He couldn't give any Biblical answers to defend the spiritual Kingdom in this forum from a few weeks ago. There were no more responses from the Aminimalists here.

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...etween-the-69th-and-70th-weeks.191615/page-12

Blain · May 19, 2020

Dave, I am sorry but mind you I mean this in the best however you are not qualified to teach what understanding bible prophecy is. Many on here have given you very scriptural and sound reasoning and responses yet you shoo away every word of wisdom and insight spoken to you. And as much as you say you hold the scriptures so highly when anyone gives you scriptures that are clearly meant to edify and teach you then you refuse to even listen and were you not the one who insists that God speaks through the scriptures alone yet you deafen your ears to his voice?

How much have actually studied bible prophecy? for instance can you explain to me the prophetic meaning of the holy feast days and how many have been fulfilled?

cv5 · May 19, 2020

Dave-L said:

Prophecy, it’s not what most think.

People assume prophecy is to foretell the future. A means to present history in advance. But this is not what Jesus says. Prophecy is so we can look back in history and see God’s hand in bringing an obscure event to pass.

Jesus said; “I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe” (John 14:29). And again, “From henceforth I tell you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he” (John 13:19)

Most of the prophecies about the coming of Christ were so vague, we could never base a detailed forecast on them until after fulfilled. John the Baptist stands out having said to be Elijah. Jesus stands out when said to be the Temple of God. Indeed, most today missed the Kingdom of God in the times of the Roman Empire thinking it would be physical instead of spiritual. And agree with the Pharisees that it is yet future and physical.

Robert Whitelaw says: When we analyze all these cases [of fulfilled prophecies], we find that the fulfillments may be classified into five categories as follows:

(a) Natural events, fulfilled as described by the writer; thirteen cases.

(b) Natural events, but not fulfilled exactly as described or foreseen; eleven cases.

(c) Fulfilled by events both natural and spiritual, but never exactly as described or likely foreseen: sixteen cases.

(d) Fulfilled by events in the spiritual realm only, but not as described or likely foreseen: forty-three cases.

(e) Fulfillments cited in the N. T. as the general tenor of ‘, what the prophets have said”, and always fulfilled by events in the spiritual realm: eleven cases.

Robert Whitelaw. THE GOSPEL MILLENNIUM and Obedience to Scripture.

So based on this it is hard to trust what we think a prophetic passage says until after God makes it clear by fulfilling it.

E.J. Young says; Now, it is contrary to the nature and genius of prophecy to reveal the future as detailed history. In all prophecy there is an element of obscurity and perhaps even of ambiguity. The Lord had distinctly said that He would speak to the prophets in a manner less clear and direct than that in which He would speak to Moses His Servant (Num. 12:1–8). With the prophets He would speak in dreams and visions and—so it would seem—in dark and enigmatic sayings. In revelations which were given as visions, therefore, we should expect an abundance of imagery and symbolism. There are many instances of such revelation in the prophetical books (e. g., Isa. 24–27; Joel 3:9–17; Zech. 14; Ps. 2; Amos 7–9).

Young, E. J. (1980). The Prophecy of Daniel: A Commentary (p. 21). Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.

Irenaeus of Lyons: “It is … more certain, and less hazardous to await the fulfillment of the prophecy, than to be making surmises, and casting about for names that may present themselves.”

You have a one track mind. Prophecy serves many purposes. One of them was to build up the faith of the Apostles. Another purpose is to warn, yet another to prepare, yet another to call such as the case with Cyrus.

tourist · May 19, 2020

Dave-L said:

I had to give you a RED X for that response Dave. Nothing personal, I just don't agree with your take on the millennium and end-time events in general. I don't believe that anyone has a complete understanding of prophecy but it is clear to me from scripture that the millennium is a physical event and that the events leading up to that are literally events that have not yet happened.

cv5 · May 19, 2020

Dave-L said:

Jesus says you must be born again to see the kingdom. The Pharisees could not see it and remain looking for a Physical kingdom in the future. Their 1000 year Millennium. The born again saw the kingdom when it arrived in Jesus' time of the Roman Empire. And they see it today. Some are deceived and cannot see it until they make a clean break with millennialism and begin a fresh study of the topic.

Psychobabble.

Truth7t7 · May 19, 2020

Diakonos said:

Jesus Christ will return to a physical earth, as the spiritual world consumes the physical in the "Twinkling Of An Eye"

Zechariah 14:1-12 Explained, "The Day Of The Lord", The Eternal Kingdom Is Revealed!

Zechariah 14:1-12 below shows the Lords return to earth in final fire in judgement.

(Verse 1) shows "The Day Of The Lord" also seen in 2 Peter 3:10-13 "Fire Judgement" below

(Verse 2) Shows that all nations are gathered for the final battle of armageddon.

(Verses 3-5) shows the Lords return, and his eternal feet touch down on the earthly Mt, of Olives, and in the "Twinkling Of An Eye" 1 Cor 15:52 takes place, in the catching up, resurrection, final judgement by fire, and the New Heavens, Earth, and Jerusalem being revealed for eternity, judgement complete, eternity begins.

(Verses 6-7) Eternal light seen, in the eternal kingdom, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 8) The river of life is seen, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 10) The New creation is being revealed, the plain is lifted up.

(Verse 12) "The Day Of The Lord" showing the "Last Day" judgement by the Lords fire, as men are consumed as they stand on their feet, 2 Peter 3:10-13

Zechariah 14:1-12KJV
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 but it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the Lordshall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 22:1-5KJV
22 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner offruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 and they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

1 Corinthians 15:52KJV
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

tourist · May 19, 2020

John146 said:

I agree with your estimation because in a figurative sense he does not he does not take the bible literally.

Blain · May 19, 2020

cv5 said:

Psychobabble may be a bit much. I think he has good intentions but lacks the understanding as we all did and do in certain areas of our walk. The problem is if keeps going on this path and refuses to listen and learn then he will remain on that one track and never truly gain understanding.
Do I claim to have a great understanding of the scriptures? by no means but I do know what is important to be able to have that understanding and that is what I and everyone is trying to teach him but while he may lack understanding in certain areas I have seen him have some good insight in other matters

cv5 · May 19, 2020

Blain said:

I don't mean to be harsh I only mean to be accurately descriptive.
When you are 100% wrong 100% of the time you are in a lot of trouble.
I think this person is stuck in a very very bad church situation, And I pray that he can escape from it. I myself have been in a similar situation a number of times, but I never committed to it and I never bought into it, though I entertained it for a season. I realized even then in my ignorance that it was bogus. Despite the anguish and disappointment it really ended up turning into a learning experience and strengthened my faith in the end.

Truth7t7 · May 19, 2020

tourist said:

There are instances of literal interpretation and symbolic.

Does God own the cattle on just 1,000 literal hills, or is this symbolic of all hills?

Psalm 50:10KJV
10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.

Blain · May 19, 2020

cv5 said:

And this is why you have my respect, you know what he is going through and are trying to help him however while I do think we should continue to try in the end we need God to loosen his hardened heart otherwise anything shown or said will only bounce off.
Again this is why there is such importance in having the heart of a student and understanding that we sometimes think we know more than we actually do.

MattforJesus · May 19, 2020

Dave-L said:

Zec 2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

All the nations did not go against Jerusalem in the first century, and not even all the then known world went against Jerusalem, but only the Roman Empire.

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD.
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the
proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Zec 14:6 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Ezekiel 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This has never happened in the past for Jesus is reigning over the heathen which they have to go to Jerusalem every year to worship the LORD, and keep the feast of tabernacles.

And Jesus comes back with all the saints and defeats the world, and saves Israel.

Which blessed and holy is the person that has part in the first resurrection, and then the millennial reign will happen, which the resurrection has not happened yet for there are still saints on earth, so the millennial reign has not happened yet.

tourist · May 19, 2020

Truth7t7 said:

That passage appears to be symbolic unless there is actually a thousand hills with cattle on it. To me it is a symbolic passage that is saying, in essence, that God owns everything. There are indeed instances of both literal and symbolic interpretations of scripture. That is where wisdom, discernment, and common sense come into play.

Blain · May 19, 2020

tourist said:

That or it could be how say their were hundreds of ballons at the party when it isn't an actual amount of the number but personally I like your perspective better.
Oh also Dave as far as people to listen to Tourist here is definitely one of them

Truth7t7 · May 19, 2020

MattforJesus said:

Zec 2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

All the nations did not go against Jerusalem in the first century, and not even all the then known world went against Jerusalem, but only the Roman Empire.

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD.
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the
proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Zec 14:6 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Ezekiel 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This has never happened in the past for Jesus is reigning over the heathen which they have to go to Jerusalem every year to worship the LORD, and keep the feast of tabernacles.

And Jesus comes back with all the saints and defeats the world, and saves Israel.

Which blessed and holy is the person that has part in the first resurrection, and then the millennial reign will happen, which the resurrection has not happened yet for there are still saints on earth, so the millennial reign has not happened yet.

There is no physical 1,000 year kingdom on this earth in your response above.

You have used the shotgun approach, p39-perhaps you need to break your post up?

Zechariah 14 is the eternal kingdom, a thread has been started on this.

Ezekiel 39 was fulfilled in the 2nd Zerubabbel temple 536BC, this isnt future.

Revelation 20:6 there are"Two" resurrections that take place on the last day, John 5:28-29 & 6:39-40 the righteous 1st to the kingdom, the wicked 2nd to the lake of fire.

dcontroversal · May 19, 2020

Prophecy is exactly what people think

God fortells a future event directly from Himself, an apostle (N.T.) or through a prophet (O.T., N.T)

Future event happens as FORETOLD

A. KNOW HE IS GOD
B. KNOW prophet was of God

Trust God!

Men love to muddy the waters and sound intelligent and all that.

Be NOT REMOVED from the simplicity found in Christ!!

Truth7t7 · May 19, 2020

tourist said:

I fully agree, discernment not ignorance.

Why was the verse given to us below?

To show the"human mind" that there is no literal earthly time in the Lord's spiritual realm of eternity.

The words "One Day" & "Thousand Years" are symbolic, showing God has no boundaries in earth's realm of time and space.

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

dcontroversal · May 19, 2020

Truth7t7 said:

The bible also says....

A thousand years is as a watch in the night...

A thousand years is as but YESTERDAY when it is past

God is not subject unto TIME, but is subject to TIMING!

Think on that one a bit!

Truth7t7 · May 19, 2020

dcontroversal said:

Jesus Christ created time, hes the Alpha & Omega

Your response in red above appears to be loud and challenging, no need for the ! In a simple conversation.

Jesus Christ Is Lord

Prophecy, it’s not what most think.

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