Does man have a libertarian free will?

[Roughsoul1991]

You can't deny Scripture.

Or I guess you can..

Because that is what you are doing.

Election is CLEARLY BIBLICAL and re-defining terms does not help your case. For instance, claiming that only a class was elected, and by being added to this class, you are elect.

If you are looking for Scriptures, I provided them at the beginning of this thread:

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/is-unconditional-election-biblical.187730/

Never said election wasn't Biblical. Scripture clearly talks about within the foreknowledge of God.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

What does Romans 9-11 teach?

All of your guy's claims are addressed in Romans 9.

And the objections to them.

It's really God that you have the issue with. I simply fully acknowledge Scripture.

And, yes, I have been elected. God has regenerated me, giving me spiritual life and a heart of flesh to replace the heart of stone. This caused my faith and repentance response.

As much as it irks you, that is exactly what happens in salvation. A heart of stone does not choose God. God provides the means to respond to him. This is what grace is.

By the way, perhaps you have a defective understanding of grace. Grace is not only unmerited favor. It is also empowerment to fulfill God's commands. These commands include the command to repent and to place ones' faith in Christ.

God does indeed command what the person cannot perform. He provides both the command and the means to obey it.

And, those who are appointed to salvation will obey.

Acts 13:48 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. (ESV)

Yes Roman's 9 is a favorite of Calvinist. Again interpretation.

It is also empowerment to fulfill God's command

Oh definitely God gave us the Spirit. But you forget the battle between flesh that Paul also speaks about.

And, those who are appointed to salvation will obey.

If you obey then what do you repent of? Or do you obey every command in perfection?

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I don't believe in equal ultimacy, if that is what you are expressing.

If you mean that God saves the elect while allowing the rest to pursue eternal destruction, that's exactly what I believe.

Again, read Romans 9-11.

It's no different than saving eight people from destruction in the flood. Eight is exactly the number that God intended to save. It is the number of new beginnings, and that is what he determined to save from the pre-flood world.

By the way, in your free-willer view, you CANNOT explain the tons of shadows and types of the Old Testament that point toward Christ. I am wondering if you are some kind of dispensationalist who denies these shadows and types. Anyone who understands them should be able to see that autonomous (libertarian) free will is nonsense. God was actively orchestrating events to point toward Jesus as the fulfillment of these shadows and types, whether the participants knew that they were being used in this manner.

Additionally, those believing in libertarian free will have no justification for believe Scripture, period. The problem is that if God does not control his instruments in authoring Scripture in a complementarian manner, you have absolutely no basis for believing in the inerrancy and inspiration of Scripture.

Libertarian free will is simply a defective theology. It is laughable in fact for a conservative Christian to hold this position. I can see some liberal Christian holding that view, but no conservative evangelical.

Anyways, I don't have any real problem with God deciding who he is going to save. Some have issues with that and deny it. Some have issues with eternal punishment and deny it too. I don't have issues with it. God is Creator and he can do what he wants with anyone. He is sovereign and NO MAN can argue with him on this. That is exactly the answer of the apostle Paul in Romans 9...WHO ARE YOU OH MAN?

Romans 9:10-25 ” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Good luck with trying to reason your way out of that. Scripture is clear in this regard. And, while it is using national heads as examples, it is clear that it is also talking about all mankind.

And, before you criticize my ability to reason, I will remind you that I don't care about your opinion of me and my ability to reason. My position concerning you is that you simply don't take Scripture seriously. I don't see how you can take Scripture seriously and hold onto libertarian free will. Well, it is possible that you can't reason typologically and that's why you think that LFW is credible...that's possible.

Do you believe in predestination. One baby is destined for hell while the another heaven. Did God already elect 1.

It's no different than saving eight people from destruction in the flood.

Noah was the only one God saw as righteous. So all who died actively rejected Noah's message and rejected God. So they justly died.

God was actively orchestrating events to point toward Jesus

Agreed. How does that limit free will? You dont know how God works. He could easily see through time and knew who was a willing vessel or use people's will to His advantage. Just as He often does even when evil is committed like the stoning of Stephen. Stop limiting to God and you will see.

The problem is that if God does not control his instruments in authoring Scripture in a complementarian manner, you have absolutely no basis for believing in the inerrancy and inspiration of Scripture.

Who is talking? You or God? Is this your answer for why all the denominations or different interpretations. All others then you are false? Because if God was controlling in authoring scripture then we would have no contradictions within the body of Christ. Free will explains this but you cannot without withdrawal to extreme unnerving conclusions like all who dont believe the same as you is not saved, or babies go to Hell. Man you must harmonize scripture. Dont reject the scriptures that speak on will, choice, decision, abide, warnings to not fall away, or return to your first love. You have to harmonize all these with the election scriptures. Foreknowledge scriptures, etc.

I don't have any real problem with God deciding who he is going to save.

Yes you do. Like John 3:16 says which you never address the whoever believes part. Whoever is a invitation to all. Please address that.

Esua was hated because of his actions. Before addressing Roman's 9 how does this verse harmonize.
1 Timothy 2:4 New International Version (NIV)
4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

How would God want all if he has already chose who is saved?

A cosmic lottery predetermined by God. When you preach before the people is this what you say? Some of you are destined for Hell so I am only hear for God's chosen people.

Free will is the reason why we are responsible for our own actions. We are morally responsible only because both obedience and disobedience are within our control. Otherwise God created 1 to be evil and the other to hear Him.

All throughout scripture the Apostles and Jesus command people to believe. Contradicting if God was the only factor in belief.

Literally one chapter over you have this requirement for salvation.
Romans 10:9-10 New International Version (NIV)
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Why say IF. Why not say out of context to preelection in your interpretation that it should say YOU WILL declare. That eliminates the choice.

Roman's 9 as you hinted at is using people's names to represent nations. We as people do not have the authority to dictate how God works or how and works. Paul was explaining that the Jews who thought just by ancestry and God's promise they was the only chosen people. But Paul was explaining God can do as he pleases and this included the gentile nations. We didn't choose that God first chose Israel. We didn't decide to allow the Gentiles. Dont just read the top but read all of ch9.

And no it isn't talking about individuality related to salvation. That is your added gesture. Harmonize with all of scripture including what I posted above.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

The question you should ask yourself is whether God is obligated to save ANYONE.

It seems to me as if the built-in assumption of free-willers is that God is obligated to save everyone.

I don't hold that assumption.

I don't think that God tried to save every man since the beginning of creation. In fact, I don't think he tried to save anyone that he didn't save. I don't see a God with exhaustive foreknowledge engaging in meaningless behavior.

Additionally, it appears to me like you guys don't take Adam's sin seriously. All mankind is held guilty of Adam's sin and is condemned because of it. This condemnation is not mere physical death alone; it is spiritual death.

Rather than blaming God for creating men who will be lost, perhaps you should put the guilt where it belongs: Adam. That is exactly what Paul does in Romans 5. This section clearly teaches that Adam's sin resulted in condemnation for all men. There was no personal libertarian free will decision required to cause this condemnation. It is true that all men have ratified Adam's decision, but the condemnation occurred through his one sin.

Adam acted as a corporate head for all mankind. He rebelled against God. God can rightly condemn all his descendants to eternal punishment due to this sin.

Adam could have obeyed God but he did not. So, you can blame Adam for condemning all mankind. That's what Scripture does.

And, the fact that God saves any is an act of mercy.

As I have said before, though, folks really just don't believe the doctrine of original sin and what it teaches. Their logic is this: if original sin is true, God isn't fair. I'm only responsible for my own sin. I cannot be held accountable for anything outside of my control. Therefore, the doctrine of original sin isn't correct.

However, the problem is that God doesn't reason like fallen men. In fact, you will find numerous cases in the OT where God condemns whole groups of people for the sin of one man. For instance, the entire families of Korah, Dathan and Abiram were destroyed for the sins of the head of the household. Same thing with Achan. David's sin of numbering Israel was punished by killing a bunch of Israelites. God does in fact hold entire groups of people guilty for the sin of an individual. And, he holds the descendants of Adam guilty for Adam's sin.

I don't think many humanistic thinkers will accept this, though, because it's against their "philosophy". Their standard is their "philosophy" and not Scripture.

The question you should ask yourself is whether God is obligated to save ANYONE.

Well God is trustworthy and His promises include a choice to All who would believe so technically yes He cannot go against His promises.

God is obligated to save everyone.

Nope that is universalism

Additionally, it appears to me like you guys don't take Adam's sin seriously. All mankind is held guilty of Adam's sin and is condemned because of it. This condemnation is not mere physical death alone; it is spiritual death.

Yes what of it? This is why God has to pursue us.

Rather than blaming God for creating men who will be lost, perhaps you should put the guilt where it belongs: Adam. That is exactly what Paul does in Romans 5. This section clearly teaches that Adam's sin resulted in condemnation for all men.

This is so childish minded why would a all loving, just and perfect God create lost individuals. This is so anti Biblical. No Romans 5 doesn't say anything about absence of free will but simply all mankind acquired the curse. All are in need of salvation.

There was no personal libertarian free will decision required to cause this condemnation.

Again this sounds ignorant. Are you really saying Adam didn't have a choice when God literally gave him a choice by saying eat from one tree, dont eat from another, but if you do you will surely die. Adam being of God's elect must of missed the part about God's control.

Adam could have obeyed God but he did not.

Dont contradict yourself. Adam didn't have free will remember.

In fact, you will find numerous cases in the OT where God condemns whole groups of people for the sin of one man.

I never made the case that God isn't the author of life and death. God can choose who lives or dies. God could kill me right now, no problem. But scripture harmonized also says God is all just. So obviously when God kills like he did to Egypt's first born sons. He is just in doing so. Possibly out of foreknowledge which is scripture. He knew if left alive they would hurt His chosen people. We dont know. The action of Pharoah led to others deaths. This has nothing to do free will. Technically tomorrow isnt promised. We are accountable to today. God can take us any moment if he so chooses.

 

[Dave-L]

Only a saved will is free. Otherwise, it is bound by sin.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Only a saved will is free. Otherwise, it is bound by sin.

Romans 2:14-15 New International Version (NIV)
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

Morality or law of morality gave these Gentiles a choice. In which their actions would sometimes accuse them or defend them.

 

[Dave-L]

Romans 2:14-15 New International Version (NIV)
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

Morality or law of morality gave these Gentiles a choice. In which their actions would sometimes accuse them or defend them.

"in spiritual matters"? Law depends on unsaved will. If it was saved it wouldn't need law.

 

[1ofthem]

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

LOL

Funny thing is I haven't even read anything more than quotes from Calvin, yet these guys think that "Calvinists" sit in a corner reading his books like they are the Bible.

This sort of thing is just typical ignorant free-willer propaganda.

The reality is that I noticed the biblical teachings regarding predestination and election and asked my free-willer pastor about them. He told me "that's Calvinism". At that point I hadn't even heard Calvin's name yet I believed the essential teaching simply from reading the Bible.

So, my advice would be, if you don't want to be a "Calvinist" then you'd better not read the Bible closely, because that is actually how I became "Calvinist".

Better go listen to your free-willer pastors and mark out the places in your Bible that discuss election and predestination, and the fallen state of man.

By the way, I hate the word "Calvinist" and only use the word "Reformed" in general. You can use this term if you want, but I think in most cases, it opens up the opportunity for them to claim that you are following a man rather than Scripture. Some of them have been indoctrinated by haters like Dave Hunt, and they are always looking to make that claim.

Just to add one point..

Another reason why I prefer to use the word "Reformed" is that I believe the other side is basically trying to swim the Tiber and return back to Rome, only without the "smells and bells" of the ritualism of Rome.

My fundamental exposure to the underlying concepts was through diligent reading of Scripture, but I am not ashamed to be associated with the Reformation.

However, I am becoming more and more convinced that "free-willer theology" is a lot closer to Rome and its synergism than to the teachings of the sons of the Reformation.

Of course, within Rome's history there were various monergists such as Augustine, Gottschalk, and the Jansenists. The last two were persecuted by the Church though.

It wouldn't surprise me at some point that free-willers would pursue union with Rome at some point, and would be willing to compromise in order to achieve this. That won't happen in the Reformed Baptist/conservative Reformed circles, though.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

John 12:32 New International Version (NIV)
32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Then ultimately if this was the only verse we read, we would assume all are saved but we know scripture calls for belief also.

.

I will break this post into several responses as I don't have time to answer them all at once.

Regarding Romans 12:2, I already responded to this. I think what you are trying to do is exhaust me by attrition.

"all men" is in the context of Jews and Gentiles. Read the context. Prior to this reference, the account relates that Greeks came to see Christ. Apparently they were not seen by him.

Therefore, "all men" does not necessarily mean every single man is drawn by Christ.

Additionally, John 6:44 indicates that all who are drawn by the Father will be resurrected on the last day. This is talking about a resurrection to glory.

And, these verses must be read in light of the many Scriptures regarding election and predestination, which you deny.

John 6:44 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
(ESV)

By the way, I don't deny that belief is involved in salvation. In fact, it is part of the package that God gives to the elect.

Ephesians 2:1-10 1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
(ESV)

A fallen man, with a heart of stone, is not going to produce biblical faith and repentance. He needs a heart change in order to produce this fruit. He needs a heart of flesh.

He cannot even see the kingdom of God without this heart of flesh. I explained John 3 in light of this in another post.

 

[oldethennew]

EZ. 36:26.
A new heart also will I give you, and a new Spirit will I put within you:
and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
=this is an Hebrew expression for a 'hardened heart'...

we are all born with a 'heart of FLESH' - duh!!!
in order to become a member of the 'Household of God', we must be born again,
hence, our 'road to Damascus experience', (super-Natural), un-worldly, un-deniable)...

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Please explain John 3:16.

I already explained John 3:16 IN DETAIL

Read the verses which come before it.

Has anyone ever taught you that you are supposed to read the Bible IN CONTEXT?

Do you notice that Jesus talks about being born again prior to John 3:16?

Why do you think he does that?

This isn't brain surgery.

Read the verses prior to John 3:16 first.

Additionally being "born of water and spirit" relates to being born again.

If you want to get aggressive with me, you can be sure that I will get aggressive with you. I do not tolerate dominating free-willers and I do not back down. Other Reformed believers might feel like it is unChristian, but my position is that if you don't answer a fool, he will think he is right.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

"in spiritual matters"? Law depends on unsaved will. If it was saved it wouldn't need law.

Actually law is set because people have choice to obey or suffer the consequences. That is how it is just.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

EZ. 36:26.
A new heart also will I give you, and a new Spirit will I put within you:
and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
=this is an Hebrew expression for a 'hardened heart'...

we are all born with a 'heart of FLESH' - duh!!!
in order to become a member of the 'Household of God', we must be born again,
hence, our 'road to Damascus experience', (super-Natural), un-worldly, un-deniable)...

Duh. Gods is in pursuit of the soul. For all are without excuse. God draws all.

John 12:32
32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Those who reject harden their heart like pharaoh did the first few times before God took judgment. For those who listen, the heart of stone begins to soften.

 

[Dave-L]

Actually law is set because people have choice to obey or suffer the consequences. That is how it is just.

But the law cannot save. This is where you miss the whole point f grace. Free will turns the gospel into law = a false gospel. And grace into works = that cannot save. People think they are saved only to one day find out God does not save on these terms.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I will break this post into several responses as I don't have time to answer them all at once.

Regarding Romans 12:2, I already responded to this. I think what you are trying to do is exhaust me by attrition.

"all men" is in the context of Jews and Gentiles. Read the context. Prior to this reference, the account relates that Greeks came to see Christ. Apparently they were not seen by him.

Therefore, "all men" does not necessarily mean every single man is drawn by Christ.

Additionally, John 6:44 indicates that all who are drawn by the Father will be resurrected on the last day. This is talking about a resurrection to glory.

And, these verses must be read in light of the many Scriptures regarding election and predestination, which you deny.

John 6:44 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
(ESV)

By the way, I don't deny that belief is involved in salvation. In fact, it is part of the package that God gives to the elect.

Ephesians 2:1-10 1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
(ESV)

A fallen man, with a heart of stone, is not going to produce biblical faith and repentance. He needs a heart change in order to produce this fruit. He needs a heart of flesh.

He cannot even see the kingdom of God without this heart of flesh. I explained John 3 in light of this in another post.

Therefore, "all men" does not necessarily mean every single man is drawn by Christ.

What in the world do you think gentile means?
1484. ethnos
Strong's Concordance

ethnos: a race, a nation, pl. the nations (as distinct from Isr.)​

Original Word: ἔθνος, ους, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: ethnos
Phonetic Spelling: (eth'-nos)
Definition: a race, a nation, the nations (as distinct from Israel)
Usage: a race, people, nation; the nations, heathen world, Gentiles.
HELPS Word-studies
1484 éthnos (from ethō, "forming a custom, culture") – properly, people joined by practicing similar customs or common culture; nation(s), usually referring to unbelieving Gentiles (non-Jews).​

Additionally, John 6:44 indicates that all who are drawn by the Father will be resurrected on the last day. This is talking about a resurrection to glory.

Yes in context to those who respond or eat of the bread of life.

John 6:51 New International Version (NIV)
51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

And, these verses must be read in light of the many Scriptures regarding election and predestination, which you deny.

False. I dont deny the verse with election, predestination etc. I deny your interpretation.

He needs a heart change in order to produce this fruit.

Agree

 

[Roughsoul1991]

But the law cannot save. This is where you miss the whole point f grace. Free will turns the gospel into law = a false gospel. And grace into works = that cannot save. People think they are saved only to one day find out God does not save on these terms.

In less you believe the command to believe is works then no the law has been fulfilled.

Just kinda confusing when scriptures call for unbelievers to hear and believe. Kinds dumb sounding when God controls everything. And this was Jesus and His Apostles calling for belief.

John 6:35
35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.

Acts 16:30-31
30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

 

[Dave-L]

In less you believe the command to believe is works then no the law has been fulfilled.

Just kinda confusing when scriptures call for unbelievers to hear and believe. Kinds dumb sounding when God controls everything. And this was Jesus and His Apostles calling for belief.

John 6:35
35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.

Acts 16:30-31
30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Grace is the opposite of law. Free will destroys grace.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I already explained John 3:16 IN DETAIL

Read the verses which come before it.

Has anyone ever taught you that you are supposed to read the Bible IN CONTEXT?

Do you notice that Jesus talks about being born again prior to John 3:16?

Why do you think he does that?

This isn't brain surgery.

Read the verses prior to John 3:16 first.

Additionally being "born of water and spirit" relates to being born again.

If you want to get aggressive with me, you can be sure that I will get aggressive with you. I do not tolerate dominating free-willers and I do not back down. Other Reformed believers might feel like it is unChristian, but my position is that if you don't answer a fool, he will think he is right.

I already explained John 3:16 IN DETAIL

Read the verses which come before it.

Has anyone ever taught you that you are supposed to read the Bible IN CONTEXT?

You mean
John 3:15
15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”

Or Born again. If born again what of it. Already said I am not a universalist.

If you want to get aggressive with me, you can be sure that I will get aggressive with you.

Not scared. Your arguments are weak. But it is entertaining to see the jumble theology. But I will eventually get bored. The only reason I have entertained you for this long despite my better judgment is to once again show you your theological flaws.

Other Reformed believers might feel like it is unChristian

Probably good advice as I was warning you this will not produce good fruit. But rotting the longer we go.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Grace is the opposite of law. Free will destroys grace.

Free will destroys grace

Bible verse?