Not By Works

[Yahshua]

Paul's letter to the Romans. Chapter 2 starting at verse 2:

2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth
against them which commit such things.


3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such
things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?


4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance
and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?


5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto
thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;


6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:


7 To them who by patient continuance in well-doing seek for glory
and honor and immortality, eternal life:


8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth,
but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,


9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil,
of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;


10 But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that worketh good,
to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:


11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law:
and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;



13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but
the doers of the law shall be justified.



14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the
things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:


15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience
also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)


16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel^^^^^.


17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,


18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent,
being instructed out of the law;


19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them
which are in darkness,


20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of
knowledge and of the truth in the law.


21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou
that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?


22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit
adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?


23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?


24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you,
as it is written.


25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be
a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.


26 Therefore if the uncircumcision [i.e. Gentiles] keep the righteousness
of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?


27 And shall not uncircumcision [i.e. Gentile] which is by nature,
if it fulfils the law, judge thee [i.e. Jew], who by the letter and circumcision
dost transgress the law?


28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision,
which is outward in the flesh:


29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart,
in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

- Paul

 

[VCO]

If You do not believe that GOD can Save a Man that was Wounded in COMBAT, and just thinking instead, that it is JUST LUCK. I think you will be CONVINCED that GOD SAVED THIS MARINE'S LIFE on the Battle for Okinawa, to become a Missionary years later, on the SAME Island HE was Wounded on.

 

[Micaiah-imla]

WOW ... I better get a BIG prize in heaven for all my work today on protecting the Gospel which clearly states salvation is a free gift.
Ephesians 2:8

It’s also referred to as “the mystery” (Ephesians 1:9; 3:3, 9; 6:19).

“His promise” (Ephesians 3:6).

“The adoption” (Ephesians 1:5).

“The word of truth” (Ephesians 1:13).

“Hope of his calling” (Ephesians 1:18).

All these sayings are connected to salvation by Paul.

 

[mailmandan]

James 2:20-24 KJB
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith (which is like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree). James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith (James 2:14) and not authentic faith.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

In James 2:21, notice that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3).

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

 

[mailmandan]

You ignored the context of Hebrews 10 and invented a sanctified, fake believer in the church that I showed you from scripture does not exist.
You have to look at what I said and the evidence I used and attempt to disprove it.

You also have to take the context of Hebrews 9 and 10 that I used to show that 'forever' does not mean 'you can't lose it' and prove it that it does.

You have done neither of these.
You just keep restating your argument.

You have shown me nothing and proved nothing and I have not ignored the context of Hebrews 10. I showed you in verse 10 where the writer of Hebrews said, "WE have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" and in verse 14, "perfected for all time THOSE who are sanctified." Yet you try to argue that "forever" here does not really mean forever or "once for all/for all time" does not really mean once for all/for all time and merely applies to the offering of the body of Jesus Christ, but not to the person who is sanctified. Yet once again, in Hebrews 10:10, we clearly read ..WE have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. In Hebrews 10:14, we read - For by one offering He has perfected for all time THOSE who are sanctified. To go from sanctified back to un-sanctified would be in contradiction here, but you really don't care and are only concerned with promoting your biased agenda.

I also showed you in verse 26 to "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately, which is continuous action, a matter of practice. We don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows ongoing, willful, continuous action. Lifestyle or bent of life. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).

Finally, in verse 39, I showed you where the writer of Hebrews set up the CONTRAST that makes it clear he was referring to make believers/nominal Christians, not saved people: But WE are not of those who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

So as I said before, after considering the CONTEXT, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as a professing believer in the Hebrew Christian community of believers, but later renounces his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and trampling under foot the work and the person of Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with the Hebrew Christian community of believers was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.

Hebrews 9 compares the inferiority of the old covenant with the superiority of the new covenant. Nothing there about forever does not really mean forever or losing salvation, so you have proved nothing. The Book of Hebrews addresses separate groups: believers in Christ, unbelievers who had knowledge of and an intellectual acceptance of the facts of Christ, but ultimately rejected Christ by drawing back to perdition instead of believing to the saving of the soul.

*You fail to recognize "nominal" Christians mixed in with genuine Christians throughout the book of Hebrews and the rest of the Bible. So there are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians/genuine believers and makes believers mixed together in various churches, yet you remain naive to this fact. So why does the Bible mention wheat and tares, wolves in sheep's clothing, false prophets, false teachers, false brethren etc.. if there are no "nominal" Christians mixed in with genuine Christians?

 

[Judges1318]

Actually, in James, the faith spoken of is the faith of the elders who pray.

There was nothing wrong with Jesus' faith.
Yet he could only heal according to one's faith.

"According to your faith let it be done to you" - Matthew 9:29

"5 He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. 6He was amazed at their lack of faith." - Mark 6:5

.

 

[mailmandan]

Without obedience unto God's will (His commandments taught in the Holy Bible) faith is dead. That's what this whole battle is all about. Righteousness vs sin. Obedience vs disobedience. For everything contrary to God's will (disobedience) is sin.

So dead faith obeys God's commandments in order to become a living faith or because it's a living faith? Just how sufficiently must we obey God's commandments in order to be saved? Are you implying that anything short of sinless, perfect obedience 100% of the time to ALL of God's commandments means that we are not righteous/are disobedient and will not be saved?

 

[mailmandan]

Colossians 1:21-23
[21] And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled [22] In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: [23] If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister.

The word "if" here is not ean, an unfulfilled, hypothetical condition used with the subjunctive mode, presenting the possibility of a future realization, but ei with the indicative, having here the idea of "assuming that you continue in the faith."

That is, continuance would show that the person's faith is firmly established in the hope of the gospel and they really have been reconciled. The form of this phrase in Greek (using the particle ei and the indicative mood of the verb epimenō) indicates that Paul fully expects that the Colossian believers will continue in the faith; no doubt is expressed, yet what about "nominal" Christians whose shallow, temporary belief withers away?

It's only natural that Paul would speak this way because he is addressing groups of people who profess to be Christians, without being able to infallibly know the actual state of every person's heart. How can Paul avoid giving them false assurance here that they will be eternally saved when in fact they may not? Paul knows that faith which is firmly grounded and established in the gospel from the start will continue. Those who continue in the faith demonstrate that they are genuine believers. But those who do not continue show that their shallow, temporary faith was not firmly rooted and established in the gospel to begin with.

 

[Judges1318]

Those passages apply to you yes but you see the difference between Mark 16:17-18 and them?

The healing is not guaranteed to happen in Paul's instructions to the Body of Christ.

Neither is it in Mark 16.
It happened and still happens, but much less now because the church was led astray by the doctrine of Cessationism, thanks to the reformed movement.
Now few have the faith to heal or be healed.

 

[Judges1318]

No response.
Jesus was clear in His analogy and it holds firm, you cannot undo it by your human reasoning.

3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again[b] he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Neither one is undone.

Non-osas does not take away the historical fact that a person was once born again.
Is that short enough for you to finally comprehend? Or are you going to continue to fight against an argument that non-osas is not making? I'm betting you will continue to fight against an imaginary argument. Watch.

 

[Lightskin]

Jesus cares who I consider a brother or not, that's who:

"17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, regard him as you would a pagan or a tax collector." - Matthew 18:17

So does Paul:

"11But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a verbal abuser, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

12What business of mine is it to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside (the church)?" - 1 Corinthians 5:11-12

Those words are written for groups/churches as a whole. Besides, your judgment is not valid because you lack faith in Jesus Christ. You’re relying on yourself for your salvation rather than completely trusting Jesus Christ.

 

[mailmandan]

Besides, your judgment is not valid because you lack faith in Jesus Christ. You’re relying on yourself for your salvation rather than completely trusting Jesus Christ.

We must not only have faith in Jesus Christ to "initially" save, but also to "ultimately" save us. Self preservation over God's preservation can easily lead to type 2 works salvation.

 

[Guojing]

Neither is it in Mark 16.
It happened and still happens, but much less now because the church was led astray by the doctrine of Cessationism, thanks to the reformed movement.
Now few have the faith to heal or be healed.

"They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

It is, you just refuse to read it literally, without adding conditions not found in that verse

 

[EleventhHour]

Non-osas does not take away the historical fact that a person was once born again.
Is that short enough for you to finally comprehend? Or are you going to continue to fight against an argument that non-osas is not making? I'm betting you will continue to fight against an imaginary argument. Watch.

Conditional security states that salvation can be lost, forfeited, forsaken, that is the point of contention, so please address this fact in light of the analogy that Jesus made to Nicodemus.

The analogy leaves no room for the possibility for salvation to be undone.

Take the veil off your eyes and be honest with yourself for once.

 

[John146]

There was nothing wrong with Jesus' faith.
Yet he could only heal according to one's faith.

"According to your faith let it be done to you" - Matthew 9:29

"5 He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. 6He was amazed at their lack of faith." - Mark 6:5

.

Yes, but James is speaking of something different. Do you believe James to be doctrine for us? Then everyone who is sick and has elders pray over them, they will be healed.

 

[Micaiah-imla]

That is, continuance would show that the person's faith is firmly established in the hope of the gospel and they really have been reconciled. The form of this phrase in Greek (using the particle ei and the indicative mood of the verb epimenō) indicates that Paul fully expects that the Colossian believers will continue in the faith; no doubt is expressed, yet what about "nominal" Christians whose shallow, temporary belief withers away?

If you use The Message as a Bible you wouldn’t need an explanation like this; it completely distorts this verse eliminating the “if” part. Just about all the other (legitimate) translations are rendered showing that there is a condition in your salvation. It should concern you that you have to resort to the Greek to come up with a rendering that wouldn’t disturb or challenge the Once Saved, Always Saved teaching.

 

[mailmandan]

If you use The Message as a Bible you wouldn’t need an explanation like this; it completely distorts this verse eliminating the “if” part. Just about all the other (legitimate) translations are rendered showing that there is a condition in your salvation. It should concern you that you have to resort to the Greek to come up with a rendering that wouldn’t disturb or challenge the Once Saved, Always Saved teaching.

I did not eliminate the “if” part, but put it in its proper place and the new testament was originally written in Greek and then translated into various other languages, so I’m not worried about that.

 

[Micaiah-imla]

I did not eliminate the “if” part, but put it in its proper place

C’mon.

If you are told, You can post freely in the CC without ever being banned: if you continue to post messages that don’t violate our polices.

It’s obvious what the context here of “if” would be without doing a study of the English language.

 

[mailmandan]

C’mon.

If you are told, You can post freely in the CC without ever being banned: if you continue to post messages that don’t violate our polices.

It’s obvious what the context here of “if” would be without doing a study of the English language.

It’s obvious to me. If you continue in the faith grounded and settled and not moved away from the hope of the gospel confirms that faith was firmly rooted and established in the hope of the gospel to begin with. Those who fail to continue demonstrate that their hope was not firmly rooted and established from the start. Thus the latter believed in vain. See 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Warnings? 😆😆😆

What are you going to do pops, put me on double secret probation? For the record, I’ve been Christian longer than you.

I teach John 3:16-17. Everything else is gravy. Go ahead and argue with that, pussycat. Your arrogance is exactly why Christians are hated. Ignore me, please!

For the record, it makes no difference at all whether one person has "been Christian longer than" another. We all become Christians at different times. just saying..