Requirements of Salvation
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Baptism is not a work, and you can't find any place that designates it as such in the Bible.
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Baptism is clearly a work and it stood between Jesus fulfilling all righteousness and not fulfilling all righteousness (Matthew 3:13-15) so baptism is designated as a "work of righteousness." According to your "baptism is not a work" logic, no work at all gets accomplished when someone is baptized and "baptism" should be designated as a "nothing." Is obeying a command of God accomplishing a good work or just doing nothing? Can you find a Bible verse which state that we are saved through faith AMD baptism or justified by faith AND baptism or whoever is NOT baptized will NOT be saved?
Verse 1 refers to Nicodemus as a ruler of the Jews. As a ruler of the Jews he would have been well versed in all Mosaic law mandated ceremonial water purification rituals/ablutions etc. In my opinion adding water baptism to Jesus exchange with Nicodemus is a mistake.
Clearly we disagree on this matter. I'm gonna leave it at that. Best wishes, FD
Clearly we disagree on this matter. I'm gonna leave it at that. Best wishes, FD
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You made some valid points. In regards to the word "water" in John 3:5, there are those who would argue that the natural sense of the passage parallels "water" with being born out of a mother’s womb (verse 4) and with "flesh" (verse 6). Simply stated in that case, Jesus told Nicodemus that in order to see the kingdom of God two births are necessary. The first is a physical, literal, "flesh" birth (which is, of course, accompanied by amniotic "water") and the second is Spirit.
There are also those who would argue that Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14; 7:37-39 and in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38.
If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again. To automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.
Yet there are still others who would argue that "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the Word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, Divine life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4). The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the Word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23), but the Holy Spirit is the Agent who accomplishes the miracle of regeneration.
There are also those who would argue that Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14; 7:37-39 and in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38.
If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again. To automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.
Yet there are still others who would argue that "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the Word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, Divine life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4). The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the Word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23), but the Holy Spirit is the Agent who accomplishes the miracle of regeneration.
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In John 3:5 the phrase ”of water and the Spirit,” uses the words “hydatos“ for water and ”pneumatos” for spirit. The word ”pneumatos” means wind or breath. So, if you see this as ”of water and wind” you see two metaphors for the Spirit being used.
I am curios what others think about this. When I stumbles across it, it just seemed to make sense.
I am curios what others think about this. When I stumbles across it, it just seemed to make sense.
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You need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine, instead of isolating pet verses, building doctrine on them, then ignoring the context and the rest of scripture.
Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."
*If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism?*Hermeneutics.
John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."
*If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism?*Hermeneutics.
John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
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EternalFire
Immersed into what? It doesn’t say into water.
What if the immersion is into forgiveness of sins, meaning into the new covenant, just like the Israelites were immersed into Moses in 1Corinthians 10:2.
See below for some background. I asked for comments on this last month.
Have your ever seen Acts 2:38 translated like this? I saw a similar translation online and I can’t get it out of my mind. Tell me what you think.
Petros de pros autos, metanoesate kai baptistheto
Peter then to them, change your mind and be immersed
hekastos hymon epi to onomati Lesou Christou
every one of you on the authority of Jesus Christ
eis aphesin ton hamartion hymon kai lempsesthe
into forgiveness of the sins of you and you will receive
ten dorean tou Hagiou Pneumatos.
the gift of the Holy Spirit.
metanoesate = change your mind
baptishtheto = be immersed
epi = on
onomati = name, authority, cause
eis = into
Thayer’s definition of baptizo says that baptizo is used in conjunction with the proposition eis to indicate the medium into which immersion occurs.
This shows the immersion here to be into forgiveness of sins, not into water.
Think about Matthew 26:28
for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
for the forgiveness of sins = eis aphesin hamartion = into forgiveness of sins
eis = into
So, Acts 2:38 talks of immersion into forgiveness of sins, which is exactly where Matthew 26:28 says the blood of the covenant was poured out.
Another interesting verse to consider here is Luke 24:47.
“and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.”
The more common reading of Acts 2:38 leads to an understanding that baptism is for the forgiveness of sins, but here Jesus clearly tells the Apostles that “repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations”. The word “for” is actually eis in Greek. So, it becomes, “a change of mind into forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations.” If you interpret Acts 2:38 as above, all of a sudden it agrees exactly with Luke 24:47. It is also in perfect harmony with Acts 3:19 and Acts 10:43.
Immersed into what? It doesn’t say into water.
What if the immersion is into forgiveness of sins, meaning into the new covenant, just like the Israelites were immersed into Moses in 1Corinthians 10:2.
See below for some background. I asked for comments on this last month.
Have your ever seen Acts 2:38 translated like this? I saw a similar translation online and I can’t get it out of my mind. Tell me what you think.
Petros de pros autos, metanoesate kai baptistheto
Peter then to them, change your mind and be immersed
hekastos hymon epi to onomati Lesou Christou
every one of you on the authority of Jesus Christ
eis aphesin ton hamartion hymon kai lempsesthe
into forgiveness of the sins of you and you will receive
ten dorean tou Hagiou Pneumatos.
the gift of the Holy Spirit.
metanoesate = change your mind
baptishtheto = be immersed
epi = on
onomati = name, authority, cause
eis = into
Thayer’s definition of baptizo says that baptizo is used in conjunction with the proposition eis to indicate the medium into which immersion occurs.
This shows the immersion here to be into forgiveness of sins, not into water.
Think about Matthew 26:28
for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
for the forgiveness of sins = eis aphesin hamartion = into forgiveness of sins
eis = into
So, Acts 2:38 talks of immersion into forgiveness of sins, which is exactly where Matthew 26:28 says the blood of the covenant was poured out.
Another interesting verse to consider here is Luke 24:47.
“and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.”
The more common reading of Acts 2:38 leads to an understanding that baptism is for the forgiveness of sins, but here Jesus clearly tells the Apostles that “repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations”. The word “for” is actually eis in Greek. So, it becomes, “a change of mind into forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations.” If you interpret Acts 2:38 as above, all of a sudden it agrees exactly with Luke 24:47. It is also in perfect harmony with Acts 3:19 and Acts 10:43.
Jesus clarifies the first clause with, "but he who does not believe shall be condemned." Jesus did not say whoever is not baptized will be condemned and Jesus did not mention baptism along with believes in (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). So like I said before. He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned.
If he who believes will be saved (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) then he who believes and is baptized will be saved as well. It's true what Jesus said in Mark 16:16, yet it's the lack of belief that causes condemnation and not the lack of baptism, which in in perfect harmony with John 3:18. Do you believe that the first part of Mark 16:16 negates the second part of Mark 16:16 and also negates John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26?
If he who believes will be saved (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) then he who believes and is baptized will be saved as well. It's true what Jesus said in Mark 16:16, yet it's the lack of belief that causes condemnation and not the lack of baptism, which in in perfect harmony with John 3:18. Do you believe that the first part of Mark 16:16 negates the second part of Mark 16:16 and also negates John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26?
E
You have shown lots of scriptural support
You just refuse to see it. Because you think baptism is a "Special" work that is different from "other works"
When paul said in titus that it is NOT by WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS which we HAVE DONE
Baptism is included in that statement.
Why?
Because baptism is a work of righteousness. It is something we do. in obedience to Gods word. no different that other Commands God has given us, Like assembling together, Taking the Lords Supper (communion) Giving to the poor. Studying to shew ourselves approved.
You see its one things to know what words are. it is another things to rightly divide what the words say.
so again I ask you
What is a wage or a reward? How do we earn those things?
can you answer?
You just refuse to see it. Because you think baptism is a "Special" work that is different from "other works"
When paul said in titus that it is NOT by WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS which we HAVE DONE
Baptism is included in that statement.
Why?
Because baptism is a work of righteousness. It is something we do. in obedience to Gods word. no different that other Commands God has given us, Like assembling together, Taking the Lords Supper (communion) Giving to the poor. Studying to shew ourselves approved.
You see its one things to know what words are. it is another things to rightly divide what the words say.
so again I ask you
What is a wage or a reward? How do we earn those things?
can you answer?
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