Catholicism vs Protestantism

[Dan_473]

So you believe Muslim that ever heard about Jesus and reject not in the plan of salvation?

A Muslim that has heard the truth about Jesus and rejected him cannot be saved.
From a Catholic point of view, salvation is a process. The Muslim in question could repent and be on the path of salvation.

Lg say Muslim in the plan of salvation because acknowledge the creator.

In English, probably most languages, there is both explicit and implicit meaning. Is it explicitly stated that Muslims are in the plan of salvation because they acknowledge the Creator? Or is this an implication that you are seeing there?

Muslim mean both they ever or never heard jesus

It took me a while to figure out what you were probably saying there. I think the lumen gentium purposely leaves it as a general statement, just "Muslims" not "all Muslims".

Say Jackson, here's some questions I would like your answers to:
What does the lumen gentium mean when it says "the plan of salvation"?
When you use that phrase, do you mean the same thing?
John 1: 29 The next day, he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
Is taking away the sin of the world the plan of salvation? Is John the Baptist saying that the whole world is included in the plan of salvation?

 

[Wansvic]

Catholicism vs Protestantism:

The Catholic Church leaders proclaim scripture and tradition are equal in authority. (Council of Trent) The early writings of church "fathers," commentaries, etc. are nothing more than individual's opinions of what they BELIEVED was conveyed in the Word.

Protestants, on the other hand, acknowledge that scripture is the sole authority in understanding Godly principles: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Timothy 3:16)

This difference is crucial when considering Jesus' comment that everyone will be judged by the Word alone:

"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: THE WORD that I have spoken, the same SHALL JUDGE HIM in the last day. (John 12:48)

 

[Wansvic]

True! And for those who have never heard of Jesus?
Possibly this will apply
Romans 2: 6 (God) "will pay back to everyone according to their works:" 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory, honor, and incorruptibility, eternal life.

The word is clear that Jesus is the only way one can be saved:
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)

Because God is a just God, everyone will be given the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ before the end comes:
"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." (Matthew 24:14)

The only question is whether a person will respond when given the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ. Example: God draws individuals through an invitation to church, etc. in order to expose them to the gospel. In doing so, God is opening doors of opportunity. It is up to a person to walk through the open door and come to know Jesus as their personal Savior. If a person refuses the invitation they are in fact condemning themselves.

Everyone will be responsible for their own choice to accept or deny the opportunity to hear and obey the gospel.

 

[Jackson123]

A Muslim that has heard the truth about Jesus and rejected him cannot be saved.

Than lg must say only Muslim that never heard about Jesus in the plan of salvation

Lg say the plan of salvation include whom that acknowledge creator and Muslim in the first list

So for Muslim lg not mention only if they never heard jesus

 

[Jackson123]

In English, probably most languages, there is both explicit and implicit meaning. Is it explicitly stated that Muslims are in the plan of salvation because they acknowledge the Creator? Or is this an implication that you are seeing ther

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

Read one more and let me ask you question

Is ccc 841 mean :
A.Muslim not in the plan of salvation?

B Or Muslim in the plan of salvation?

 

[Jackson123]

A Muslim that has heard the truth about Jesus and rejected him cannot be saved.
From a Catholic point of view, salvation is a process. The Muslim in question could repent and be on the path of salvation.


In English, probably most languages, there is both explicit and implicit meaning. Is it explicitly stated that Muslims are in the plan of salvation because they acknowledge the Creator? Or is this an implication that you are seeing there?


It took me a while to figure out what you were probably saying there. I think the lumen gentium purposely leaves it as a general statement, just "Muslims" not "all Muslims".

Say Jackson, here's some questions I would like your answers to:
What does the lumen gentium mean when it says "the plan of salvation"?
When you use that phrase, do you mean the same thing?
John 1: 29 The next day, he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
Is taking away the sin of the world the plan of salvation? Is John the Baptist saying that the whole world is included in the plan of salvation?

Taking away the sin of the world is to forgive the sin of the people.

Every body welcome to accept Jesus and forgiven than save.

It is not the same as LG

Lg imply Muslim in the plan of salvation not because if they believe in Jesus, but because acknowledge creator

Creator is jesus and die on the cross to buy our pardon

Muslim attack this fact and say Jesus never die

So that Muslim include a group that acknowledge creator is lie and not true

 

[Jackson123]

John the Baptist say Jesus come to remove sin all the world

Than the other part of the Bible say, whosoever believe will be save.

LG say the plan of salvation for those who acknowledge the creator Muslim is in the first place

That imply Muslim acknowledge the creator

Wrong, Muslim attack the creator doctrine.

 

[Dan_473]

Yep, so the statement Muslim (regardless ever or never heard Jesus) in the plan of salvation us unbiblical

In my opinion, your conclusion does not follow.
If you want to carefully lay out your logic, I'll be glad to look at it!

 

[Dan_473]

Jesus is the creator, Muslim not acknowledge Jesus as creator

So Muslim not acknowledge the creator.

The point I was making was that the phrase
In the plan of salvation
Is not the same as
Saved.

 

[Dan_473]

Dangerous because attack the very foundation of salvation doctrine, Jesus die to buy our pardon

I understand that, but saying that Jesus is just another incarnation of Krishna would also attack the very foundation of the doctrine of salvation.

How you say Muslim worship Christian god?

I've explained this several times before regarding Paul and the Athenians.
Please tell me in your own words what it is I've been saying on that subject.

 

[Dan_473]

Non of those verse say athenians in the plan of salvation.

Right, but that wasn't why I posted them.
What I said was
"He does imply, though, that it is good to seek God based on whatever revelation a person has."
And
"Paul implies that the Athenians were making progress in seeking God based on the Revelation that they had."

Yes God give rain to every body, not only to Muslim or athenians but it not imply Muslim in the plan of salvation

That wasn't what I was trying to show. I was showing that the Athenians had some knowledge of the true God.
That knowledge wasn't enough to save. But it might qualify them for eternal life based on Romans 2!

 

[Dan_473]

Because God is a just God, everyone will be given the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ before the end comes:

Do you mean everyone now living, or everyone who has ever lived? And do you believe they will hear it here on Earth? Or after they die?

 

[Dan_473]

Than lg must say only Muslim that never heard about Jesus in the plan of salvation

Lg say the plan of salvation include whom that acknowledge creator and Muslim in the first list

So for Muslim lg not mention only if they never heard jesus

I believe an issue we keep running into is whether
In the plan of salvation
Means the same thing as
Saved.

I think this is causing a lot of issues as we go back and forth, so I'm hoping you will tell me your views soon!

 

[Dan_473]

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

Read one more and let me ask you question

Is ccc 841 mean :
A.Muslim not in the plan of salvation?

B Or Muslim in the plan of salvation?

Yes, it says that Muslims are also included in the plan of salvation. But, the thing is that's not what I asked you about. What I asked you about was essentially the word "because".
Does the lumen gentium use that word? Is it explicitly stated or is it an implication that you are seeing?

 

[Dan_473]

Taking away the sin of the world is to forgive the sin of the people.

Every body welcome to accept Jesus and forgiven than save.

It is not the same as LG

Lg imply Muslim in the plan of salvation not because if they believe in Jesus, but because acknowledge creator

Creator is jesus and die on the cross to buy our pardon

Muslim attack this fact and say Jesus never die

So that Muslim include a group that acknowledge creator is lie and not true

Thanks for your response, but what are the actual answers to these questions, if you wish to answer?

What does the lumen gentium mean when it says "the plan of salvation"?
When you use that phrase, do you mean the same thing?
John 1: 29 The next day, he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
Is taking away the sin of the world the plan of salvation? Is John the Baptist saying that the whole world is included in the plan of salvation?

 

[Jackson123]

In my opinion, your conclusion does not follow.
If you want to carefully lay out your logic, I'll be glad to look at it!

So you don't believe Muslim in the plan of salvation because acknowledge the creator?

What is the definition in the plan of salvation?

Why LG say the plan of salvation include those who acknowledge the creator

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

To me it imply Muslim in the plan of salvation because acknowledge the creator
Is my conclusion wrong

What is your conclusion?
Is that mean Muslim is not in the plan of salvation?

 

[Jackson123]

The point I was making was that the phrase
In the plan of salvation
Is not the same as
Saved.

My question is : is muslim that deny Jesus as God, deny Jesus die on the cross, acknowledge the creator?

 

[Jackson123]

That wasn't what I was trying to show. I was showing that the Athenians had some knowledge of the true God.
That knowledge wasn't enough to save. But it might qualify them for eternal life based on Romans 2!

If you talking about romans 2 than statement

Muslim in the plan of salvation because acknowledge the creator not under romans 2

Romans 2 is for those that never hear Jesus/cepreator.

 

[Jackson123]

Yes, it says that Muslims are also included in the plan of salvation. But, the thing is that's not what I asked you about. What I asked you about was essentially the word "because".
Does the lumen gentium use that word? Is it explicitly stated or is it an implication that you are seeing?

It's imply

 

[Jackson123]

Thanks for your response, but what are the actual answers to these questions, if you wish to answer?

What does the lumen gentium mean when it says "the plan of salvation"?
When you use that phrase, do you mean the same thing?
John 1: 29 The next day, he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
Is taking away the sin of the world the plan of salvation? Is John the Baptist saying that the whole world is included in the plan of salvation?

Is the word "world " same as the whole world?