Not By Works
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i have many times
hebrews is about returning to the law, which states salvation can be lost and a person can fall away, requiring sacrifice to be given for restoration
the author is making a point, IF it is possible one could fall away, they could NEVER BE RENEWED, and even declaring it can be lost puts Christ to shame, as he would have to be crucified again,
the verses that follow, prove this point, the earth drinks the rain, brings forth herbs usefull for those who cultivate it (we call this fruit of the spirit, gold silver precious stone) but if it bears thorns and thistles it is reflected (wood hay and straw) and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned (but he himself will be saved even as though through ie, the fruit of his labor will be burned, as wood hay and straw, but he himself, near to being cursed, will be saved.
hebrews is about returning to the law, which states salvation can be lost and a person can fall away, requiring sacrifice to be given for restoration
the author is making a point, IF it is possible one could fall away, they could NEVER BE RENEWED, and even declaring it can be lost puts Christ to shame, as he would have to be crucified again,
the verses that follow, prove this point, the earth drinks the rain, brings forth herbs usefull for those who cultivate it (we call this fruit of the spirit, gold silver precious stone) but if it bears thorns and thistles it is reflected (wood hay and straw) and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned (but he himself will be saved even as though through ie, the fruit of his labor will be burned, as wood hay and straw, but he himself, near to being cursed, will be saved.
Jesus walked in love and that's how we ought to walk. This doesn't mean we will never sin or stumble along the way, yet as we love one another as Christ loved us, along with clothing ourselves with with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, patience and forgiveness, we are walking as Jesus walked. (John 13:34; Ephesians 5:1-2; Colossians 3:12-14)
Jesus was not self righteous and doing righteous works from a righteous heart out of love for the Lord does not make us self righteous. Setting out to do righteous works in order to obtain salvation based on doing those works makes one self righteous. We are saved through faith, not works.
Who said anything about striving for that?
I have no contempt against those who desire to perform righteous works, including myself, yet keep in mind that it was not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy that He saved us.. (Titus 3:5) We must not put the cart before the horse.
Jesus was not self righteous and doing righteous works from a righteous heart out of love for the Lord does not make us self righteous. Setting out to do righteous works in order to obtain salvation based on doing those works makes one self righteous. We are saved through faith, not works.
Who said anything about striving for that?
I have no contempt against those who desire to perform righteous works, including myself, yet keep in mind that it was not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy that He saved us.. (Titus 3:5) We must not put the cart before the horse.
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In regards to 1 John 3:9, you favor "doth not sin" (KJV) over "practices sin" (NASB) because the KJV sounds like it supports what you want to hear, namely, sinless perfection. Greek scholar AT Robertson explains in 1 John 3:9 - Doeth no sin (amartian ou poiei). Linear present active indicative as in verse John 4 like amartanei in verse John 8 . The child of God does not have the habit of sin. His seed (sperma autou). God's seed, "the divine principle of life" (Vincent). Cf. John 1 . And he cannot sin (kai ou dunatai amartanein). This is a wrong translation, for this English naturally means "and he cannot commit sin" as if it were kai ou dunatai amartein or amarthsai (second aorist or first aorist active infinitive). The present active infinitive amartanein can only mean "and he cannot go on sinning," as is true of amartanei in verse John 8 and amartanwn in verse John 6 . For the aorist subjunctive to commit a sin see amarthte and amarth in John 2:1 . A great deal of false theology has grown out of a misunderstanding of the tense of amartanein here. Paul has precisely John's idea in Romans 6:1 epimenwmen th amartiai (shall we continue in sin, present active linear subjunctive) in contrast with amarthswmen in Romans 6:15 (shall we commit a sin, first aorist active subjunctive).
https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/1-john/1-john-3-9.html
https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/1-john/1-john-3-9.html
Jesus is the door/gate and we enter through that door/gate through faith in Jesus Christ because that is how we are saved. (John 10:9; Ephesians 2:8) The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) HOW you walk in that faith is WORKS and we are not saved by works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). You are really flirting with type 2 works salvation. So sinless perfection is the ONLY walk by which we enter the narrow gate? Anything short of that walk means we will not be saved? Is that what you are saying? My red flag remains raised.
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I believe that your previous posts are somewhat vague and ambiguous, which is why I asked you those questions, which you did not answer, so I will give you a second chance to answer my questions in order to get clarity on exactly what you believe.
Are you saying that a person (upon initially placing their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation) remain lost UNTIL later, AFTER they produce works and are saved by BOTH faith AND works?
Does living faith save BEFORE a work is done? Or does a work have to be done before a faith is deemed living?
Are you saying that a person (upon initially placing their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation) remain lost UNTIL later, AFTER they produce works and are saved by BOTH faith AND works?
Does living faith save BEFORE a work is done? Or does a work have to be done before a faith is deemed living?
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Yes, Jesus said they believed, yet with a shallow, temporary belief that had no root, produced no fruit and withered away, which is not saving belief, as I already explained in post #133,857 which clearly refutes your arguments. All you do is focus on the word "believe" then insert your bias and ignore the rest of the parable in typical nosas fashion. So according to your logic, the demons believe (pisteuo) and are saved? (James 2:19) We find the same greek word (pisteuo) in Acts 16:31 - Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Are the demons saved? Of course not!
I also showed you that John has portrayed people who "believe" but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of firmly rooted and established belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.
Also in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed" in him turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. But you refuse to even consider the truth here because you have your biased agenda.
You mean you are not going to swallow your pride and accept the truth. Nobody is saying that they 'didn't really' believe anything at all. They did believe to some level, but their belief fell short of saving belief in Jesus.
Typical straw man argument. Notice how I read the entire parable in context and properly harmonized scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. All you did was focus on the word 'believe' then insert your biased conclusion and ignore the rest in typical nosas fashion.
I also showed you that John has portrayed people who "believe" but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of firmly rooted and established belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.
Also in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed" in him turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. But you refuse to even consider the truth here because you have your biased agenda.
You mean you are not going to swallow your pride and accept the truth. Nobody is saying that they 'didn't really' believe anything at all. They did believe to some level, but their belief fell short of saving belief in Jesus.
Typical straw man argument. Notice how I read the entire parable in context and properly harmonized scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. All you did was focus on the word 'believe' then insert your biased conclusion and ignore the rest in typical nosas fashion.
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Personal opinion:
In observing the guest on this thread,I must state,we only know each from the scripture we quote or our own opions we give!
Some show love in their words in trying to gain understanding of the others POV.
There is abundant belligerence,arrogance,mocking,and scoffing.
The Word of God is our study manual on becoming Christlike.
I do not believe we are sinless for we still war with the flesh.
I do not believe in OUR OWN strength we can ever attain righteousness regardless of the acts we perform for Him.
That said,we must mature in our discipleship of our Master,for He said GREATER than these ( his own) shall we do!
In stating MY opion,I pray we all take time to study and search the word and pray that the Holy Spirit truly be our guide!
May He find us faithful servants at his coming!
In observing the guest on this thread,I must state,we only know each from the scripture we quote or our own opions we give!
Some show love in their words in trying to gain understanding of the others POV.
There is abundant belligerence,arrogance,mocking,and scoffing.
The Word of God is our study manual on becoming Christlike.
I do not believe we are sinless for we still war with the flesh.
I do not believe in OUR OWN strength we can ever attain righteousness regardless of the acts we perform for Him.
That said,we must mature in our discipleship of our Master,for He said GREATER than these ( his own) shall we do!
In stating MY opion,I pray we all take time to study and search the word and pray that the Holy Spirit truly be our guide!
May He find us faithful servants at his coming!
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The scripture says that those that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24). You said the sin nature does not die until man dies. The Bible says that those that are Christ's have killed the flesh.
If any man be in Christ his is a new creation: old things are passed away ( Corinthians 5:17). It does not say, If any man be in Christ he has a new position; old things remain.
If ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live (Romans 8:13). There is nothing in this verse to suggest that the body of sin must be allowed to coexist with the new man in the spirit. When you are taught in a way that allows for the body of sin to remain in you, its like the parable of putting new wine into old bottles: the end result is that both will perish because the bottles will break (Luke 5:37; Matthew 9:17).
I wanted to address Ecclesiastes 7:20:
For there is not a just man on earth who does good and does not sin.
All men fall under this verse until Christ. If you believe on him you can escape this condition along with having all your sins taken away as well (which sins could never be taken away by the sacrifices of the old covenant - Hebrews 10:1-2). And future sins would not be included because a man that is born again cannot commit any future sin. This is hard for the carnal mind to comprehend (I know) which is why we need to be renewed in the spirit of our minds and examine ourselves whether or not we are in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5).
The portion of scripture taken from Romans 7:14-25 is not describing a believer in the Spirit; it describes a man in the flesh. For the context is; When we were in the flesh... (Romans 7:5).
Paul then turns to describe they that are in the Spirit at Romans 8:9:
But ye ARE NOT in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be the that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
Romans 9:8:
They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God.
And you cannot have both natures because "old things ARE passed away"
If you are born again (of the Spirit), you are spirit. Not spirit and flesh.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (John 3:6).
Again, these are hard sayings; who can hear them?
A man in the flesh cannot understand these things.
The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14).
But he that is spiritual judges all things [can evaluate all things] (1 Corinthians 2:15).
A true born again man can make the right judgment as to how salvation truly works; a double minded man (in the flesh and spirit) is unstable in ALL his ways (James 1:8) and finds it hard to understand what Paul wrote in his letters and so proceed to twist his writings (2 Peter 3:16).
If any man be in Christ his is a new creation: old things are passed away ( Corinthians 5:17). It does not say, If any man be in Christ he has a new position; old things remain.
If ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live (Romans 8:13). There is nothing in this verse to suggest that the body of sin must be allowed to coexist with the new man in the spirit. When you are taught in a way that allows for the body of sin to remain in you, its like the parable of putting new wine into old bottles: the end result is that both will perish because the bottles will break (Luke 5:37; Matthew 9:17).
I wanted to address Ecclesiastes 7:20:
For there is not a just man on earth who does good and does not sin.
All men fall under this verse until Christ. If you believe on him you can escape this condition along with having all your sins taken away as well (which sins could never be taken away by the sacrifices of the old covenant - Hebrews 10:1-2). And future sins would not be included because a man that is born again cannot commit any future sin. This is hard for the carnal mind to comprehend (I know) which is why we need to be renewed in the spirit of our minds and examine ourselves whether or not we are in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5).
The portion of scripture taken from Romans 7:14-25 is not describing a believer in the Spirit; it describes a man in the flesh. For the context is; When we were in the flesh... (Romans 7:5).
Paul then turns to describe they that are in the Spirit at Romans 8:9:
But ye ARE NOT in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be the that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
Romans 9:8:
They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God.
And you cannot have both natures because "old things ARE passed away"
If you are born again (of the Spirit), you are spirit. Not spirit and flesh.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (John 3:6).
Again, these are hard sayings; who can hear them?
A man in the flesh cannot understand these things.
The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14).
But he that is spiritual judges all things [can evaluate all things] (1 Corinthians 2:15).
A true born again man can make the right judgment as to how salvation truly works; a double minded man (in the flesh and spirit) is unstable in ALL his ways (James 1:8) and finds it hard to understand what Paul wrote in his letters and so proceed to twist his writings (2 Peter 3:16).
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Yes, the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" and they certainly believe in the existence of Jesus Christ, yet they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and are not saved. (Acts 16:31) Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.
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'Stay saved' and 'in order to be saved' are the same thing.
'In order to be saved' is referring to when Jesus comes back.
We must still be believing when Jesus comes back to be saved from His wrath.
If you stop believing somewhere along the line between when you first started believing and when Jesus returns you are no longer protected from His wrath:
"This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time." - 1 Peter 1:4-5
The new osas says you can take the "through faith" part out of the statement above and it's still true, you are still shielded by God's power through faith--a faith you don't have anymore.
I don't need glasses to know that's contradictory.
The new osas says even if you no longer believe and trust in Christ you're still going to waltz right into the kingdom when Jesus returns.
'In order to be saved' is referring to when Jesus comes back.
We must still be believing when Jesus comes back to be saved from His wrath.
If you stop believing somewhere along the line between when you first started believing and when Jesus returns you are no longer protected from His wrath:
"This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time." - 1 Peter 1:4-5
The new osas says you can take the "through faith" part out of the statement above and it's still true, you are still shielded by God's power through faith--a faith you don't have anymore.
I don't need glasses to know that's contradictory.
The new osas says even if you no longer believe and trust in Christ you're still going to waltz right into the kingdom when Jesus returns.
So you truly believe that living a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time is the narrow path and anyone who falls short of that will not be saved? 
The Bible does not teach sinless perfection. (1 John 1:8-10)
The Bible does not teach sinless perfection. (1 John 1:8-10)
See my latest response to VCO.
Jesus said you would do GREATER works than him; do yo believe that scripture?
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I DO shall HE DO ALSO; and GREATER works than these shall he do (John 14:12).
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