What if Daniel did have a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks?

azamzimtoti · Apr 17, 2020

The problem with Dave-Learner is he never posts actual scripture in his attempts at accusing people of claiming "Messiah the Prince" is the same as "the prince that shall come" without ANY evidence.

(Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.)

(Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.)

Serious discussion with the guy is a waste of time.

eternally-gratefull · Apr 17, 2020

azamzimtoti said:

The problem with Dave-Learner is he never posts actual scripture in his attempts at accusing people of claiming "Messiah the Prince" is the same as "the prince that shall come" without ANY evidence.

(Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.)

(Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.)

Serious discussion with the guy is a waste of time.

The people of the prince who shall come

cant be Jesus, by this time, Jesus came and went

they say our belief makes no sense. yet it makes perfect sense

Yahshua · Apr 17, 2020

azamzimtoti said:

From what I've read of him in this thread, it seems his focus is on properly attributing the last week of the 70 'sevens' prophecy to the Messiah and not to an antichrist, without which there isn't support for a 7 year tribulation in the future.

Daniel 9:27
"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one 'seven': and in the midst of the 'seven' he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.."

Washed · Apr 17, 2020

azamzimtoti said:

Everlasting righteousness is not here yet.

I do not agree. Eternal redemption is not the same as everlasting righteousness. Everlasting righteousness will not be here until the eternal kingdom, when there will be no more death, all sin abolished, etc.

I do not believe what happened in 70AD is the fulfillment of Dan 9:24.

No offence, but where does the Bible say: "The 'ending of sin' is a covenant position"? I take the phrase more literally.

Washed · Apr 17, 2020

Jimbone said:

For the record, I believe Preterism, whether full or partial, and a-millennialism are crazy.

But neither side should condemn the other to hell for their end-times beliefs. People are not saved based on whether their eschatology is right or not.

azamzimtoti · Apr 17, 2020

Washed said:

The "remembering" of sin is part of the covenant, in this the case I was speaking towards and in context of the covenant Daniel is speaking of the Mosaic covenant.

Just as in Revelation John is speaking of "remembrance" of Israel blood guilt:

(Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath)

Same in Ezekiel:

(Ezek 21:23 And it shall be unto them as a false divination in their sight, to them that have sworn oaths: but he will call to remembrance the iniquity, that they may be taken)

Chester · Apr 17, 2020

Dave-L said:

The crucifixion (death of Messiah) is in verse 26 and the seventieth week is not introduced till verse 27.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

There is nothing in the grammar or wording that allows the last part of verse 26 to be moved ahead into verse 27

Nehemiah6 · Apr 17, 2020

Dave-L said:

As I already said, you have absolutely no clue about Bible prophecy, and should not even be engaging in these discussions. Unless a person is fully committed to believing the Bible, and not some crazy man-made doctrines, he or she will never understand. Messiah the Prince is Christ, whereas "the prince that shall come" is the Antichrist.

THE PRINCE THAT SHALL COME IS A DESTROYED AND BRINGS DESOLATIONS
...and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. (Dan 9:26)

THE PRINCE THAT SHALL COME IS A BLASPHEMER AND ENEMY OF GOD
And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. (Dan 11:36,37)

Note "the indignation" mentioned above is God's indignation against the desecration (pollution) of the future temple (sanctuary) with the Abomination of Desolation, and that triggers the desolations which are predetermined.

And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. (Dan 11:31)

azamzimtoti · Apr 18, 2020

I think Dave-Learner has a gap between the ears . .

Diakonos · Apr 18, 2020

Our conclusions have to be consistent with what the Word says.

Gabriel said 70 weeks.
שָׁבוּעַ shâbûwaʿ"week"="heptad" (a unit of 7). But the question is: A unit of 7...what? days? weeks? months? years?
Well...Moses gives us some insight in Gen 29:26-28:

"But Laban said, “It is not the practice in our place to marry off the younger before the firstborn.
"Complete the week of this one, and we will give you the other also for the service which you shall serve with me
for another seven years.” Jacob did so and completed her week, and he gave him his daughter Rachel as his wife."

Someone might object to this meaning of the word שָׁבוּעַ shâbûwa. But here's where it becomes clear that "7 years" IS the meaning of each "week" in Daniel 9:24-27:

69 x (7 years) = 483 years = 173,880 days.
We know that this timeline began on March 14, 445 BC (The "issuing of a a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem" by King Artaxerxes) Neh 2:1-8.
Exactly 173,880 days after that decree, Jesus came to Jerusalem riding on a donkey, The Triumphal Entry....which fits perfectly with Gabriel's prophesy because Jesus was "cut off" (killed/crucified). In His Triumphal Entry, Christ, in fulfillment of Zechariah 9:9, officially presented Himself to the nation of Israel as the Messiah. He was evidently familiar with Daniel’s prophecy when on that occasion He said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes” (Luke 19:42).

So what this tells us is that the weeks of Daniel's prophesy are units of 7 years. This means that the 70th week is a 7-year period just like the rest.

According to Dan 9:26 the Anointed One was not “cut off” in the 70th “seven”; He was cut off after the 7 and 62 “sevens” had run their course. This means that there is an interval between the 69th and 70th “sevens.” Christ’s crucifixion, then, was in that interval, right after His Triumphal Entry, which concluded the 69th “seven.” This interval was anticipated by Christ when He prophesied the establishing of the church (Matt. 16:18). This necessitated the setting aside of the nation Israel for a season in order that His new program for the church might be instituted. Christ predicted the setting aside of the nation (Matt. 21:42–43).

Because this prophecy is "for your people" (vs 24=The Jews, not the Gentiles)...
...The present Church Age is the interval between the 69th and 70th “sevens.”

Dave-L · Apr 18, 2020

Nehemiah6 said:

As I already said, you have absolutely no clue about Bible prophecy, and should not even be engaging in these discussions. Unless a person is fully committed to believing the Bible, and not some crazy man-made doctrines, he or she will never understand. Messiah the Prince is Christ, whereas "the prince that shall come" is the Antichrist.

THE PRINCE THAT SHALL COME IS A DESTROYED AND BRINGS DESOLATIONS
...and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. (Dan 9:26)

THE PRINCE THAT SHALL COME IS A BLASPHEMER AND ENEMY OF GOD
And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. (Dan 11:36,37)

Note "the indignation" mentioned above is God's indignation against the desecration (pollution) of the future temple (sanctuary) with the Abomination of Desolation, and that triggers the desolations which are predetermined.

And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. (Dan 11:31)

Read this, it will make it clear for you and others.

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/closing-the-gap-in-dispensationalism.190094/

Dave-L · Apr 18, 2020

Chester said:

“And after threescore and two weeks [= in the 70th week] shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.” Daniel 9:26 (KJV 1900)

Dave-L · Apr 18, 2020

Washed said:

You change the subject to Antichrist instead of Jesus IF you have two different princes in the same passage.

Dave-L · Apr 18, 2020

tanakh said:

Daniels Prophecy is about two different periods. After the Messiah was cut of; the Prince that came was Titus with his army they destroyed the temple and the city. This happened in AD70. After the city and sanctuary were destroyed desolation's were determined. There is no mention of how long the desolation's last. To date it has been about 2000 years The seventieth week doesn't follow on from the 69th. Titus never made a seven year covenant with Israel; but he was a type of the Antichrist to come during the future seventieth week which is the second period of time covered by the Prophecy.

If the 70th week is yet future, why were the Magi looking for the Messiah 2k years ago?

TheLearner · Apr 18, 2020

what is the sentence structure of the text?

Dave-L · Apr 18, 2020

azamzimtoti said:

The problem with Dave-Learner is he never posts actual scripture in his attempts at accusing people of claiming "Messiah the Prince" is the same as "the prince that shall come" without ANY evidence.

(Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.)

(Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.)

Serious discussion with the guy is a waste of time.

You are saying a gap replaces everything from the time of Jesus' baptism, including his crucifixion, until after Stephen's death. And I have a problem?

Washed · Apr 18, 2020

Dave-L said:

Your problem is that you completely misunderstand and/or misrepresent what people are saying.

Dave-L · Apr 18, 2020

Washed said:

How so? If you place a Gap between the 69th and 70th weeks, it means Jesus was not crucified, and he became Antichrist instead who appears thousands of years in the future in a Judaistic setting with animal sacrifices. = Christianity and Jesus are a delusion and a cult.

Washed · Apr 18, 2020

Dave-L said:

Your mistake continues to be in not understanding that Jesus was crucified before the 70th week, not in the middle of the 70th week.

Dave-L · Apr 18, 2020

Washed said:

This is a false doctrine necessary for Dispensationalists to turn Jesus into the Antichrist. Stick with scripture and you will see the difference.

What if Daniel did have a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks?

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