There are non-believers who demonstrate love , patience and kindness...? Is it necessary to be a Christian to be kind and do God's will?

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Scarlett7297

Active member
#1
Mar 28, 2020
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#1
The fruit of the Holy Spirit are love, gentleness, patience, longsuffering and many other things. Yet, there are non Christians whom I have observed practicing this better than me or say some Christians. That makes me wonder what is the role of accepting Christ into our lives or becoming Christians when we don't have the fruits and others have it. Aren't they doing better than us then? Why be Christians? Doesn't the will of God include loving others? And if they do it as non Christians , what is wrong in that..?
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#2
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
#2
Scarlett7297 said:
The fruit of the Holy Spirit are love, gentleness, patience, longsuffering and many other things. Yet, there are non Christians whom I have observed practicing this better than me or say some Christians. That makes me wonder what is the role of accepting Christ into our lives or becoming Christians when we don't have the fruits and others have it. Aren't they doing better than us then? Why be Christians? Doesn't the will of God include loving others? And if they do it as non Christians , what is wrong in that..?
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When I was a hooligan before the Lord saved me, I always thought any broken-down old soak drinking his life away in the barroom was more loving than most church people I knew. Later I found out why. Jesus said drunks and prostitutes enter the Kingdom before the self-righteous do. Because the sinner knows he or she is a sinner and is humbled by it. And the self-righteous never recognize their sin.

Then after reading Martin Luther's Bondage of the Will, I learned that unless a person comes to the end of themselves, and realizes they are hopelessly lost unless God saves them, they are not in a position to be saved. They will trust in their faith or works to save them and not in Christ. And this is the state of most thinking they are saved today.

When people stop thinking they saved themselves by their obedience, and God saved them instead, we are brought low and humbled by the fact that we could not believe had it not been for God who gave us the faith to believe.
 
Blain

Blain

The Word Weaver
#3
Aug 28, 2012
19,502
2,707
113
#3
Yes even non believers can show the fruits more than Christians this is because there is a vast difference between a Christian by title and a Christian by heart. I once saw something that infuriated me, there was this person who claimed to be a satanist his belief was he didn't worship satan himself he just followed his way of doing what he wanted of course that a whole other debate for a another time. but anyways this satanist is well known around my this area many say he is kind hearted and has a cheerful personality.

I am walking by and I see him giving money to this homeless women when an old man aproaches this young satanists and begins starting this angry rant of how he is evil and the lake of fire is excited to meet him and they go into an open debate of their religions. Interestingly enough the satanist was the one responding respectfully and with kindness while this person who claimed to be a christian had such fire and anger in his words and said to the satanist if he had his shot gun on him he would kill this satanist.

I became infuriated and marched up to this old man and told him how very unchristlike he was acting and how regardless if this person claimed to be a satanist he is called to love and be love and certainly not say he would shoot the person and of course because this young stranger confronted this older man about his actions he then lashed out on me saying how defending the enemy is the same as being with them and how I am a young man and know nothing and should ( to sugar coat it) shut my trap.
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#4
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
#4
Smart people understand that the lifestyle God tells us of works for the best way to live life, and often do a better job of living their life than Christians do. Often Christians understand that it is the forgiveness of Christ that gives them eternal life, but after Christ makes them sinless and clean they haven't repented or accepted the ways of Christ for living and are judgmental and mean spirited.

Some Christians even say "works won't save" and they don't bother to learn from Christ, for if works won't save they don't want to be bothered to live through Christ. They know of His forgiveness, so they say they won't bother.
 
Blain

Blain

The Word Weaver
#5
Aug 28, 2012
19,502
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#5
Blik said:
Smart people understand that the lifestyle God tells us of works for the best way to live life, and often do a better job of living their life than Christians do. Often Christians understand that it is the forgiveness of Christ that gives them eternal life, but after Christ makes them sinless and clean they haven't repented or accepted the ways of Christ for living and are judgmental and mean spirited.

Some Christians even say "works won't save" and they don't bother to learn from Christ, for if works won't save they don't want to be bothered to live through Christ. They know of His forgiveness, so they say they won't bother.
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Maybe someone should re tell the parable of the workers and talents
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#6
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#6
Scarlett7297 said:
The fruit of the Holy Spirit are love, gentleness, patience, longsuffering and many other things. Yet, there are non Christians whom I have observed practicing this better than me or say some Christians. That makes me wonder what is the role of accepting Christ into our lives or becoming Christians when we don't have the fruits and others have it. Aren't they doing better than us then? Why be Christians? Doesn't the will of God include loving others? And if they do it as non Christians , what is wrong in that..?
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How do you know that they are non-christians?
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#7
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
#7
Scarlett7297 said:
The fruit of the Holy Spirit are love, gentleness, patience, longsuffering and many other things. Yet, there are non Christians whom I have observed practicing this better than me or say some Christians. That makes me wonder what is the role of accepting Christ into our lives or becoming Christians when we don't have the fruits and others have it. Aren't they doing better than us then? Why be Christians? Doesn't the will of God include loving others? And if they do it as non Christians , what is wrong in that..?
Click to expand...
It is not your sins that cause you to separate from God, it was Adam's sin. A noun, sin, separates you, and not the verb.

All of us are guilty because of Adam.

Romans 5:12-19 has the details.
 
breno785au

breno785au

Senior Member
#8
Jul 23, 2013
6,002
767
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Australia
#8
Don't be deceived, being good isn't enough.
Those who have accepted Christ's atonement for sin and trust wholly in His work will spend eternity with God.
You may encounter a Christian who is not patient but that's not to say that God will not work on that person for many years down the track teaching them patience (as an example)
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#9
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
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#9
Dave-L said:
When I was a hooligan before the Lord saved me, I always thought any broken-down old soak drinking his life away in the barroom was more loving than most church people I knew. Later I found out why. Jesus said drunks and prostitutes enter the Kingdom before the self-righteous do. Because the sinner knows he or she is a sinner and is humbled by it. And the self-righteous never recognize their sin.

Then after reading Martin Luther's Bondage of the Will, I learned that unless a person comes to the end of themselves, and realizes they are hopelessly lost unless God saves them, they are not in a position to be saved. They will trust in their faith or works to save them and not in Christ. And this is the state of most thinking they are saved today.

When people stop thinking they saved themselves by their obedience, and God saved them instead, we are brought low and humbled by the fact that we could not believe had it not been for God who gave us the faith to believe.
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I think that you and Scarlet are both probably misjudging who a christian is. There are many, many, people who are trusting in their faith and works to save them eternally, who are of the elect of God.
 
breno785au

breno785au

Senior Member
#10
Jul 23, 2013
6,002
767
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#10
A judge doesn't weigh up how many good things a person has done when they are presented in court over a crime they committed, they still have to pay the penalty for the crime. Their good works aren't even considered.
 
Blain

Blain

The Word Weaver
#11
Aug 28, 2012
19,502
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113
#11
breno785au said:
A judge doesn't weigh up how many good things a person has done when they are presented in court over a crime they committed, they still have to pay the penalty for the crime. Their good works aren't even considered.
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wow I never even thought of that very insightful of you
 
M

MattforJesus

Banned
#12
Apr 15, 2017
2,867
653
113
#12
Scarlett7297 said:
The fruit of the Holy Spirit are love, gentleness, patience, longsuffering and many other things. Yet, there are non Christians whom I have observed practicing this better than me or say some Christians. That makes me wonder what is the role of accepting Christ into our lives or becoming Christians when we don't have the fruits and others have it. Aren't they doing better than us then? Why be Christians? Doesn't the will of God include loving others? And if they do it as non Christians , what is wrong in that..?
Click to expand...
I know an atheist that has great morals, and a lot of atheists have good morals for they want the world to get along and have peace.

But there is also occult atheists that believe we are still evolving which they would not have as good of morals, but they want peace for the world but would still be aggressive in war to have that peace, especially if they are the inner circle of the occult.

Many people have good morals in the world but they cannot have salvation unless the confess Christ, and if they did not hear the word of God to believe in a higher power, and love this higher power, and love people to offend them, which creation testifies of a higher power that created all things so the world is without excuse.

Plus if they do not confess Christ then they cannot receive the Spirit to overcome the flesh completely, and even though they may seem to have good morals there would still be sin in their life, and they need all their sins washed away.

A Spirit led life will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, and shows the ways of the Spirit.

Love works no ill towards their neighbor, therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Jesus said you will know them by their fruits.

And there would be a lot of hypocrites at this time.

If a person that does not confess Christ has a better moral lifestyle than a person that confesses Christ, the person that does not confess Christ has a better chance to make it to heaven.

The Lord knows them that are His having this seal that everyone that names the name of Christ depart from sin.

And awake to righteousness and sin not, but some have not the knowledge of God.

Which some have a form of godliness, but deny being led of the Spirit for they want to enjoy sin, and are ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth, and are lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God, which God said turn away from those people.

A person that does not believe in a God, or believes in a God but does not confess Christ cannot have salvation, for then they would not have the Spirit of God to regenerate them for only the blood of Jesus can wash away sins for them to receive the Spirit.

But a hypocritical christian cannot have salvation either for they do not have the Spirit.

Those that have heard the word of God but does not believe in a God cannot have salvation.

Those that have not heard the word of God but does not believe in a God cannot have salvation.

But those that have not heard the word of God but believes in a God can have salvation if they love God, and love people to not offend them, and to ask God for forgiveness if anything is amiss for they have not heard the word of God.

Only by receiving the Spirit can we have salvation which we can only receive the Spirit by confessing Jesus as Savior and His blood washes away our sins.

And by living like Christ being led of the Spirit for if not the Bible says we can be cut off from God.

The people who do not confess Christ, do not believe in a God, does not accept Christianity would not be able to receive the Spirit for no matter how good a person may think they are they are not but there is some sin in their life, and if you offend in the least of God's law you offend in all and are guilty.

You will not be able to find a person in the world that does not have sin they are doing no matter how good they appear to people.

God said only go by your needs and then help the poor and needy, and we know that many violate that one for people in the world like to heap money to themselves, and material things, and enjoy worldliness, and fleshy pleasures with their money.

Jesus said if you lust in your heart after the opposite sex, think about sex, then it is a sin, so we know many violate that.

Love is greater than faith and hope, and without love you are nothing, but love does not think an evil thought, and does not sin.

And if you do not love then you cannot have salvation.

No matter how moral you think people may be in the world they are not.

But there is a lot of hypocrites that claim Christ which means they are acting like the world, and Jesus said they do not belong to Him.

God said in the flesh dwells no good thing, so if a person is not led of the Spirit then they are led of the flesh.
 
K

Kim82

Guest
#13
#13
This is a very good question. Yes it is true, even some atheist are loving and kind and great humanitarians. But this will not help them to get into heaven.

What will get us into heaven is accepting the free gift of God's salvation.

All the good and wonderful things that people do, while you may be impressed by it, God is not. Because He can see people's hearts and true motives. Not as man sees does God see, for man looks on outward appearance, but God sees the heart. 1samuel 16:7

God alone is good, Mark 10:18. There is no goodness apart from God's goodness. None can be good apart from God. And when we accept His salvation we become acceptable to Him.

Fruits does not save us. Fruits are a result of salvation. But it is not a competition. Who has more fruits than who. Please bear that in mind.
 
K

Kim82

Guest
#14
#14
Blain said:
Yes even non believers can show the fruits more than Christians this is because there is a vast difference between a Christian by title and a Christian by heart. I once saw something that infuriated me, there was this person who claimed to be a satanist his belief was he didn't worship satan himself he just followed his way of doing what he wanted of course that a whole other debate for a another time. but anyways this satanist is well known around my this area many say he is kind hearted and has a cheerful personality.

I am walking by and I see him giving money to this homeless women when an old man aproaches this young satanists and begins starting this angry rant of how he is evil and the lake of fire is excited to meet him and they go into an open debate of their religions. Interestingly enough the satanist was the one responding respectfully and with kindness while this person who claimed to be a christian had such fire and anger in his words and said to the satanist if he had his shot gun on him he would kill this satanist.

I became infuriated and marched up to this old man and told him how very unchristlike he was acting and how regardless if this person claimed to be a satanist he is called to love and be love and certainly not say he would shoot the person and of course because this young stranger confronted this older man about his actions he then lashed out on me saying how defending the enemy is the same as being with them and how I am a young man and know nothing and should ( to sugar coat it) shut my trap.
Click to expand...
They have a zeal for God, but not according to according to accurate knowledge. Romans 10:2
 
J

Jackson123

Senior Member
#15
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
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113
#15
Scarlett7297 said:
The fruit of the Holy Spirit are love, gentleness, patience, longsuffering and many other things. Yet, there are non Christians whom I have observed practicing this better than me or say some Christians. That makes me wonder what is the role of accepting Christ into our lives or becoming Christians when we don't have the fruits and others have it. Aren't they doing better than us then? Why be Christians? Doesn't the will of God include loving others? And if they do it as non Christians , what is wrong in that..?
Click to expand...
John 15

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Impossible for non Christian bear fruit or produce pure love.

The world definition of love is not the same as bible definition of love.

Bible definition of love is a love to the point you willing to die for you enemy like Jesus did on the cross.

That is impossible unless you abide in Him.

When Jesus in you than He will produce that quality of love for you. We not able to bear fruit of ourselves
 
T

TheIndianGirl

Guest
#16
#16
I do not believe works save. I believe God will be merciful to even rapists, paedophiles, you name it, etc. We have to remember that both men who were crucified with Jesus mocked Jesus, but a few hours later one of them became a believer. I think if a person seeks God even in his final most desperate moments God/Jesus will reveal himself in whatever way He chooses and the person will surrender to God. I do not think we have know all the details about the relationship between God and an individual, since a God is a personal God.
 
T

TheIndianGirl

Guest
#17
#17
I do not believe an understanding of Christian doctrines is necessary for salvation. There is a lot of debate on the doctrines. Some of the doctrines go above a person's head, and we should not judge them for not being too bright. I find that others memorized the doctrines so much, to the point of indoctrination, that it does not count as belief.
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#18
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
#18
Kim82 said:
This is a very good question. Yes it is true, even some atheist are loving and kind and great humanitarians. But this will not help them to get into heaven.

What will get us into heaven is accepting the free gift of God's salvation.

All the good and wonderful things that people do, while you may be impressed by it, God is not. Because He can see people's hearts and true motives. Not as man sees does God see, for man looks on outward appearance, but God sees the heart. 1samuel 16:7

God alone is good, Mark 10:18. There is no goodness apart from God's goodness. None can be good apart from God. And when we accept His salvation we become acceptable to Him.

Fruits does not save us. Fruits are a result of salvation. But it is not a competition. Who has more fruits than who. Please bear that in mind.
Click to expand...
I wonder about the person who is mean and has no kindness but understands that Christ forgives and can cleanse him, wants Christ to do that for him, but doesn't want to be loving or kind? Can this person be cleansed from the sin he loves and means to keep?
 
T

TheIndianGirl

Guest
#19
#19
Also, I do not believe knowledge of the Bible is necessary for salvation.
 
H

Hungry

Banned
#20
Nov 26, 2012
3,095
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113
#20
Some people who do good things also believe in karma. Some are empathetic, and get good “feelings” by being charitable. Others enjoy the attention they receive. You can’t be a Christian without being kind, but just because one is kind, it doesn’t mean they have been spiritually reborn. It is a grafting into Christ that saves us. He is the Vine, we are the branches. We are saved because we are in Him, not because of our works. The branches that produce more fruit may be rewarded but there is more to salvation than good deeds.
 
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