The Problem of evil

[MessageOfTheCross]

Bread Crumbs “The Journey of Faith”

Faith must make its journey from the head to the heart. The truths that we hear and initially believe must be tested for their genuineness. If they pass the test then we have faith that can be put to use in our everyday life. If it is not genuine it will not endure the rigors of the test and will fade away under the pressure brought against it. To the believer this is known as the trial of our faith. The test usually comes as a gut wrenching, heart crumpling, mind blowing event, or even a series of events, that seems both impossible to bear up under and more than just a little unfair. But as always, God is working something together for our good. He's building something that will last, something that will assist us through our long and difficult journey here below. If need be, if He deems it best, this trial may be lengthy and exhausting. But as the song says, in the end, it will be worth it all. So hold out and hang on! God is doing something great! Always remember, the greatest opposition always comes right before the greatest blessing.

1 Peter 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

Pastor Loren Larson
Loren Larson Ministries

 

[TheIndianGirl]

But God created evil when he created them knowing they were evil.

God created good, with the option of absence of good if one chooses.

 

[Dave-L]

God created good, with the option of absence of good if one chooses.

Without sin you cannot know God. Sin displays his mercy, goodness, wrath, sovereignty, love, wisdom, and all that God is. Otherwise unknown apart from sin.

 

[TheIndianGirl]

My position is the same as Gordon Clark, a Presbyterian (deceased).

Clark stated that "God's causing a man to sin is not sin. There is no law, superior to God, which forbids him to decree sinful acts. Sin presupposes a law, for sin is lawlessness." Clark explained that "God is above law" because "the laws that God imposes on men do not apply to the divine nature."

Not sure if I follow, or agree. This kind of says that God can be evil (causing man to stray/sin), however we won't call this evil because God is above the law.

 

[TheIndianGirl]

Without sin you cannot know God. Sin displays his mercy, goodness, wrath, sovereignty, love, wisdom, and all that God is. Otherwise unknown apart from sin.

Adam and Eve knew God in the Garden of Eden. Animals know God and they do not sin.

 

[Dave-L]

Not sure if I follow, or agree. This kind of says that God can be evil (causing man to stray/sin), however we won't call this evil because God is above the law.

God cannot sin. No matter what he does. There is no other god he must legally obey.

 

[Dave-L]

Adam and Eve knew God in the Garden of Eden. Animals know God and they do not sin.

But they cannot know God's goodness without sin and suffering to compare it to.

 

[TheIndianGirl]

God cannot sin. No matter what he does. There is no other god he must legally obey.

Does this mean that God can do evil things (lie, cheat, steal, etc.) but it is not sin?

 

[Dave-L]

Does this mean that God can do evil things (lie, cheat, steal, etc.) but it is not sin?

Yes.

“And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee. 1 Kings 22:19–23 (KJV 1900)

 

[TheIndianGirl]

But they cannot know God's goodness without sin and suffering to compare it to.

I think they know that God is Father and that he cares, and that he is good. However, with evil in the world, the contrast between good and evil is even more stark.

 

[TheIndianGirl]

Yes.

“And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee. 1 Kings 22:19–23 (KJV 1900)

Here, it looks like God is using evil to destroy evil, so the end result is good.

 

[UnoiAmarah]

"How can the existence of God be harmonized with the existence of evil?"

Is that a question or just the topic for discussion?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Why would God create Satan and us knowing we are evil? Free will does not answer the question or solve the riddle.

God did NOT "create" Satan. He did create Lucifer, who CHOSE to become Satan.

God did NOT "create evil" humanity. He created a perfect man and woman and commanded them to obey just ONE COMMANDMENT. And they disobeyed because they CHOSE to disobey.

Evil exists on earth because of free will, so your denial of free will shows that your will is in bondage to delusional thinking. God created men and angels with free will.

From God's eternal perspective (which regards a thousand years as just one day) evil will exist on this earth for a little more than six *days*. After that God will establish the New Heavens and the New Earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[MattforJesus]

"How can the existence of God be harmonized with the existence of evil?" If God is all-good, He would want to destroy evil. If God is all-powerful, He is able to destroy evil. But evil still exists. It seems that God cannot be both all-good and all-powerful. However, Christianity teaches that He is both. This is the problem of evil."

1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

God is all good.

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Lucifer was made perfect in his ways until iniquity was found in him, so it is obvious that God gave the angels a choice for then it is true love.

When Lucifer fell then his name was changed to Satan to identify his new nature.

Like Abram was changed to Abraham to identify his new nature, and Jacob to Israel, and Saul to Paul, for they were given new name but on the side of good.

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions(sought out their own ways).

Adam and Eve were made in the image of God which is an innocent nature in flesh, and God made people with a choice for then it is true love.

God is all powerful but He gave angels and people a choice for then it is true love if the angels stay with God, and if people accept God.

Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

God is all powerful and one day He will do away with all sin.

God is all good and all powerful, but He gave people a choice for if they choose Him then it is true love, so He does not force anyone to follow Him, and people will sin on earth but one day He will do away with all sin.

Why boastest thou thyself in mischief, O mighty man? the goodness of God endureth continually.

Psa 73:3 For I was envious at the foolish, when I saw the prosperity of the wicked.
Psa 73:12 Behold, these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches.
Psa 73:16 When I thought to know this, it was too painful for me;
Psa 73:17 Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.
Psa 73:18 Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction.

Everybody will be accountable for their sins so it is not like the wicked is getting away with their sins but they will pay for their sins one day for not accepting the truth.

Now if the wicked could get away with their sins and God did not have power to go against them then a person could say God is not all powerful, but God can go against them and defeat the wicked so He has more power than them.

God gave us a choice so some people will do wrong so that does not mean God is not good, and not all powerful, and one day He will go against the wicked and do away with sins.

God is all good, and all powerful.

God gave angels and people a choice for then it is true love if they follow the truth, and God will do away with all sin one day.

 

[Bbrdrd]

The answer to this question, Biblically, is not propositional. It is relational.

My position is the same as Gordon Clark, a Presbyterian (deceased).

Clark stated that "God's causing a man to sin is not sin. There is no law, superior to God, which forbids him to decree sinful acts. Sin presupposes a law, for sin is lawlessness." Clark explained that "God is above law" because "the laws that God imposes on men do not apply to the divine nature."

You have, in fact, negated the goodness of God in this position. If there is no objective way for us to determine if something is "good" and things that are sinful are not sinful in themselves then the terms become meaningless. You deny moral realism, that there are things that are in fact good and evil in the nature of the acts, to rescue a monstrous image of God. And it makes it even more monstrous.
Luckily, that's not the God revealed in Christ and that's where we find our answer to why God, for the time being, tolerates evil. And it's for our sakes. Because each of us on our own would express both good and evil so evil exists as long as humanity exists. And the inclination of humanity is toward evil. So God appointed a schoolmaster to teach us what is evil, the law. When the ripeness of the law was ready, He harvested it in the cross. Now we have a new teacher, the Holy Spirit. He will teach us the ways of righteousness. When this is complete, men will be judged and evil will be done away with.
Of course, this propositional answer is of little value to the sufferer but God provides an answer to that as well through poetry like Job where solace can be found in the struggle to understand.

 

[Dave-L]

The answer to this question, Biblically, is not propositional. It is relational.


You have, in fact, negated the goodness of God in this position. If there is no objective way for us to determine if something is "good" and things that are sinful are not sinful in themselves then the terms become meaningless. You deny moral realism, that there are things that are in fact good and evil in the nature of the acts, to rescue a monstrous image of God. And it makes it even more monstrous.
Luckily, that's not the God revealed in Christ and that's where we find our answer to why God, for the time being, tolerates evil. And it's for our sakes. Because each of us on our own would express both good and evil so evil exists as long as humanity exists. And the inclination of humanity is toward evil. So God appointed a schoolmaster to teach us what is evil, the law. When the ripeness of the law was ready, He harvested it in the cross. Now we have a new teacher, the Holy Spirit. He will teach us the ways of righteousness. When this is complete, men will be judged and evil will be done away with.
Of course, this propositional answer is of little value to the sufferer but God provides an answer to that as well through poetry like Job where solace can be found in the struggle to understand.

“Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,” Romans 9:20–23 (KJV 1900)

 

[Dave-L]

1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

God is all good.

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Lucifer was made perfect in his ways until iniquity was found in him, so it is obvious that God gave the angels a choice for then it is true love.

When Lucifer fell then his name was changed to Satan to identify his new nature.

Like Abram was changed to Abraham to identify his new nature, and Jacob to Israel, and Saul to Paul, for they were given new name but on the side of good.

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions(sought out their own ways).

Adam and Eve were made in the image of God which is an innocent nature in flesh, and God made people with a choice for then it is true love.

God is all powerful but He gave angels and people a choice for then it is true love if the angels stay with God, and if people accept God.

Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

God is all powerful and one day He will do away with all sin.

God is all good and all powerful, but He gave people a choice for if they choose Him then it is true love, so He does not force anyone to follow Him, and people will sin on earth but one day He will do away with all sin.

Why boastest thou thyself in mischief, O mighty man? the goodness of God endureth continually.

Psa 73:3 For I was envious at the foolish, when I saw the prosperity of the wicked.
Psa 73:12 Behold, these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches.
Psa 73:16 When I thought to know this, it was too painful for me;
Psa 73:17 Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.
Psa 73:18 Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction.

Everybody will be accountable for their sins so it is not like the wicked is getting away with their sins but they will pay for their sins one day for not accepting the truth.

Now if the wicked could get away with their sins and God did not have power to go against them then a person could say God is not all powerful, but God can go against them and defeat the wicked so He has more power than them.

God gave us a choice so some people will do wrong so that does not mean God is not good, and not all powerful, and one day He will go against the wicked and do away with sins.

God is all good, and all powerful.

God gave angels and people a choice for then it is true love if they follow the truth, and God will do away with all sin one day.

“Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,” Romans 9:20–23 (KJV 1900)

 

[Locoponydirtman]

RC Sproul did a message about this that I found very helpful.

 

[Dave-L]

God did NOT "create" Satan. He did create Lucifer, who CHOSE to become Satan.

God did NOT "create evil" humanity. He created a perfect man and woman and commanded them to obey just ONE COMMANDMENT. And they disobeyed because they CHOSE to disobey.

Evil exists on earth because of free will, so your denial of free will shows that your will is in bondage to delusional thinking. God created men and angels with free will.

From God's eternal perspective (which regards a thousand years as just one day) evil will exist on this earth for a little more than six *days*. After that God will establish the New Heavens and the New Earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

God created all just as you see. This is the problem of evil free will cannot solve.

 

[Dave-L]

Is that a question or just the topic for discussion?

It's both. It's an old question with many answers. I think only one answer. Gordon Clark's does it justice.