Refuting The Cessationism Doctrine: Spiritual Gifts, Tongues, Miracles Haven’t Ceased Since Pentecost!!

[garee]

Again, I would ask you to read Exodus 4. The Jews were taught by God to expect signs and wonders from anyone claiming to be his messenger. As (Heb. 2:3-4) indicated, this is also true in the 4 Gospels, as well as Acts.

how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard,

4 God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.

Hebrews 2:4 would make no sense if signs and wonders were not required to convince the Jews.

Again unseen signs that follow after. Confirming they heard the word in respect to the work of faith working in them to both will and perform the good will (prophecy) . Not a outward view-able sign that confirms. The sign of a new tongue the new born again will to preach the gospel. It according to the power of God working in a person can raise them to that new life that they might exercise their new tongue also. .

Two kinds of signs. Signs that after the vision .You have just left city limits. Or sign as evidence you have just entered city limits. .

Belief a reflection or shadow of the substance as it is written .Prophecy the unseen eternal understanding

Not signs that show Jesus makes a good circus seal .No faith needed. Look and see.

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

The Jews for that temporal time in Egypt in that parable were used to typify the gospel to the whole world. The believing Jew were used to represent the whole of converted mankind. They knew by faith beforehand that Jehovah was coming as there savior 400 years earlier. It was prophesied. That prophecy came and fulfilled the hope of those who were born again . The unbelievers that had no faith that comes from hearing the word of God. They stood in wonderment having no faith to define the work of the hand of God moving out His people.

They believed in gods in the likeness of men and had no desire to serve a God not seen. God used signs rather than prophecy which they did not believe . He used signs to move them out of the way so he could continue to do the work of prophecy.

Prophecy for those who believe .Signs for those who rebel against the word of God.

Like the sign of those who fall backward after making a noise to confirm they mock the word of God, as sign against them . . yet they still refuse make a noise and fall backward again and again .

 

[presidente]

You mean when you read those examples, you are saying NONE of them had the Jews soliciting signs from Jesus?

Look at the context of the post. The passage does not show the disciples of John asking for signs. Jesus did signs. Jesus took the initiative in that, as far as we can see in the passage.

I already stated that the purpose of John was to record the 7 signs Jesus did for the Jews to believe in Jesus. Do you accept that?

No. John says these things were written that ye might believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that believing, ye might have life through His name. So if you want a purpose statement, go with what John wrote. God has a lot of purposes. I'm not going to say something was THE purpose, especially when there is something really clear there at the end of the book related to the purpose of the whole book.

You want a specific verse where BOTH must happen simultaneously? One where Jews request a sign AND Jesus respond with a sign?

You'd mentioned earlier someone demanding a sign and someone else doing them on the spot. I just don't see that scenario in the Gospels. Jesus did miracles. Some Jews demanded a sign from Him after He fed the 5000. They were probably asking for the fulfilled prophecy type of sign, the type used to test a prophet. That passage doesn't give Israel a guarantee that true prophets will do signs on demand. It just allows for rejecting the prophet who gives a sign whose sign does not come to pass.

Haha, okay, I can see you are determined to stick to your guns. Nothing I use from scripture will be able to change your mind then.

The point you are making is one I cannot think of any scripture to back up. If you know of a case where someone demanded a sign and women else did it on the spot in the New Testament, just show me. I can't think of any. That is a point you posted that i am disagreeing with you on.

Did Jews demand signs at times? Yes. Does that mean no Jew ever believed without having a sign he demanded fulfilled? No. Does it mean no Jew will ever be saved without seeing a miracle? No.

Is any of these an argument for gifts ceasing? No, since there are still Jews, anyway.

 

[garee]

You mean when you read those examples, you are saying NONE of them had the Jews soliciting signs from Jesus?

I already stated that the purpose of John was to record the 7 signs Jesus did for the Jews to believe in Jesus. Do you accept that?

You want a specific verse where BOTH must happen simultaneously? One where Jews request a sign AND Jesus respond with a sign?

Haha, okay, I can see you are determined to stick to your guns. Nothing I use from scripture will be able to change your mind then.

We walk by faith the unseen eternal not after what the eyes see the temporal . We are saved by believing prophecy (sola scriptural) not by adding the oral traditions as signs of men ..

Jesus said if they hear not the one source of Christian faith "the law and the prophets" .God's two witness. Then neither would those who have no faith believe even if one was raised from the dead. (walk by sight)

And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.Luke 16:30-31

Faith comes by hearing not seeing. Seeing comes by seeing.

Again we walk by the faith of Christ who lives in us . Not after the lust of the eye the lust of the flesh they simply as self edifying tools produce false pride. The blind see by the work of the Spirit in them those who say they see but have no new spirit will be made blind

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)

 

[Guojing]

No. John says these things were written that ye might believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that believing, ye might have life through His name. So if you want a purpose statement, go with what John wrote. God has a lot of purposes. I'm not going to say something was THE purpose, especially when there is something really clear there at the end of the book related to the purpose of the whole book.

Did you remember to read both verses instead of just the last one?

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

 

[Guojing]

We walk by faith the unseen eternal not after what the eyes see the temporal . We are saved by believing prophecy (sola scriptural) not by adding the oral traditions as signs of men ..

Jesus said if they hear not the one source of Christian faith "the law and the prophets" .God's two witness. Then neither would those who have no faith believe even if one was raised from the dead. (walk by sight)

And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.Luke 16:30-31

Faith comes by hearing not seeing. Seeing comes by seeing.

Again we walk by the faith of Christ who lives in us . Not after the lust of the eye the lust of the flesh they simply as self edifying tools produce false pride. The blind see by the work of the Spirit in them those who say they see but have no new spirit will be made blind

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)

I agree with you that we are to walk by faith.

I am just saying the Jews are different from us, they require signs. It does not mean they will always believe after the signs, as you correctly quoted.

 

[presidente]

Did you remember to read both verses instead of just the last one?

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The stated purpose is so that 'ye might believe...' , not to tell the signs He did.

 

[Guojing]

The stated purpose is so that 'ye might believe...' , not to tell the signs He did.

You are determined to reject the point about the purpose of the 7 signs specially recorded by John.

 

[garee]

I agree with you that we are to walk by faith.

I am just saying the Jews are different from us, they require signs. It does not mean they will always believe after the signs, as you correctly quoted.

Jews are used in ceremonies as shadows a gospel to the world .Not a sign unto themselves.But to represent the whole of mankind as converted and unconverted mankind.

Unconverted mankind requires a sign, they walk by sight.They can be be converted in the same way as any believer. It is not or has it ever been a Jewish religion.

 

[Guojing]

Jews are used in ceremonies as shadows a gospel to the world .Not a sign unto themselves.But to represent the whole of mankind as converted and unconverted mankind.

Unconverted mankind requires a sign, they walk by sight.They can be be converted in the same way as any believer. It is not or has it ever been a Jewish religion.

Ever since Abraham to Paul conversion, it was always about Judaism.

 

[garee]

Ever since Abraham to Paul conversion, it was always about Judaism.

About Judaism according to who and what?

What is Judaism?

 

[presidente]

You are determined to reject the point about the purpose of the 7 signs specially recorded by John.

You can count out 7 signs covered in John. My oint is the way you assign 'purposes' to scripture. John says that the purpose of the book is that ye might believe ..and that believing ye might have life through His name. You say the purpose is to record the seven signs. It is tight there on the page so we should agree.

In another case, miracles among Gentiles in Acts 15, where there is no purpose statement you assert what THE purpose.

 

[notuptome]

You can count out 7 signs covered in John. My oint is the way you assign 'purposes' to scripture. John says that the purpose of the book is that ye might believe ..and that believing ye might have life through His name. You say the purpose is to record the seven signs. It is tight there on the page so we should agree.

In another case, miracles among Gentiles in Acts 15, where there is no purpose statement you assert what THE purpose.

Yes believe in Jesus as Christ not believe in signs. If Pentecostals focused on the giver and not the gifts they would be a much more effective witness for Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[garee]

Yes the spiritual unseen gifts are on loan till the last day . The power of Him working in us . He whose name is Jealous will not share the power with corrupted bodies of death. We have the treasure of that power in us but is not of the corruptible, (us).

He whose name is Jealous. He comforts us and brings to each individuals mind the things He has taught us . . .causing us to humble one self knowing where are help comes from .(not the things see the temporal )

The living abiding word working to bring to our remembrance that what has been taught and building on.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.



.

 

[CS1]

Yes believe in Jesus as Christ not believe in signs. If Pentecostals focused on the giver and not the gifts they would be a much more effective witness for Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

you would not know. And by that account, Jesus would be wrong too by your statement. It was Jesus who said Signs & wonders would follow those that. and Paul said 1cor chapter 12 through 14 Desire spiritual gifts. You talk about being witnesses I bet you have not led one person to Christ this month. That would be a great sign for you to do. How about dat?

 

[presidente]

Yes believe in Jesus as Christ not believe in signs. If Pentecostals focused on the giver and not the gifts they would be a much more effective witness for Christ.

One reason there are so many Pentecostals is because of the massive amount of evangelism done throughout the world. Christ is central. There is a proper place for signs, wonders, and gifts of the Spirit.

 

[DJ3]

Cessationism and non-cessationism are simply doctrinal possibilities drawn from different viewpoints on scripture. Both have their biblical strengths and weaknesses. But the issue of our living in an age of supernatural physical manifestations of the Holy Spirit as during the 1st century is spurious at best. Claims of an ongoing era of the miraculous in any way harking to the days of the New Testament would be a simple case of prima facie. It is this point that is ignored by the followers of the charismatic movement.

You can not prove a prima facie case with words nor would you use prima facie to prove a doctrical case.

 

[Guojing]

About Judaism according to who and what?

What is Judaism?

A simple definition: Ever since Abraham and until Paul, God only make covenants with Jews, according to the Bible from Genesis 12.

 

[Guojing]

You can count out 7 signs covered in John. My oint is the way you assign 'purposes' to scripture. John says that the purpose of the book is that ye might believe ..and that believing ye might have life through His name. You say the purpose is to record the seven signs. It is tight there on the page so we should agree.

In another case, miracles among Gentiles in Acts 15, where there is no purpose statement you assert what THE purpose.

I don't understand why you insist on splitting hairs here.

John 20:30-31 said the purpose of him specifically documenting 7 signs is so that people can believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

That is the gospel of the kingdom. Signs and wonders are essential to the gospel of the kingdom.

 

[Guojing]

Yes believe in Jesus as Christ not believe in signs. If Pentecostals focused on the giver and not the gifts they would be a much more effective witness for Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

We don't tell others to believe Jesus is the Christ now, that was what the Jews had to believe under the gospel of the kingdom. You had to show signs in order for the Jews to have a chance to believe you then.

We tell them to believe that Jesus died for their sins and rose again for their justification, summed up in 1 Cor 15:1-4, that is the gospel of grace that is valid NOW. No one is asking for signs now for that gospel, and if they did, we won't be able to show them, because God does not give them to us.

 

[presidente]

I don't understand why you insist on splitting hairs here.

John 20:30-31 said the purpose of him specifically documenting 7 signs is so that people can believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

That is the gospel of the kingdom. Signs and wonders are essential to the gospel of the kingdom.

This is a tangent of yours anyway. Why don't we get back to the previous topic? The overall topic had to do with cessationism, and you were trying to assert certain things about the way signs worked, and Israel, and somehow were trying to get a case for cessationism out of that.