Is it a sin to drink alcohol

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

You misrepresented what I stated. Read what I stated again please, and if you are honest (up to you to make that call), then see I never said any such thing:

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"If you had done a word study on that text, and connected it to Titus, in both contexts, you would understand it is not speaking about 'amount' of alcohol. It is speaking about not being altogether slaves (even constantly thinking on) of alcohol, as many of the pagans, Gentiles (in their various temples, and false worship, etc) and even some Jews were. It is stating that a Deacon (etc) could not hold that office, while being enslaved altogether to alcohol.​

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When you desire to see that word study and context, you let me know, otherwise, please feel free to study to shew thyself approved unto God, and let go your inebriated theology. You have 'beer-goggle' theology. " - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...-to-drink-alcohol.191061/page-29#post-4204433​

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I specifically said it was contextually speaking about alcohol in 1 Timothy 3.

Will you correct yourself about what I clearly stated? Or will you continue, as you have been?

And those who occasionally drink are not enslaved to alcohol. That’s why it not a sin to drink it. But to get smashed? Now, that’s a sin. I haven’t had a drink in almost 15 years, so I’m not stating my case on here to defend myself. But I will defend the rights of my Brothers & Sisters who do occasionally have a drink(not occasionally get drunk). Huge difference betwixt the two.

 

[WithinReason]

And those who occasionally drink are not enslaved to alcohol. That’s why it not a sin to drink it.

Those are two separate things. Not the same thing at all. For instance, to fornicate occasionally, while not being a slave to it, is still sin. It is true that persons can get away with drinking alcohol for a little while, and not be slave to it, but that doesn't mean it isn't sin. Sin is still in the drinking of it, whether slave or no.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Those are two separate things. Not the same thing at all. For instance, to fornicate occasionally, while not being a slave to it, is still sin. It is true that persons can get away with drinking alcohol for a little while, and not be slave to it, but that doesn't mean it isn't sin. Sin is still in the drinking of it, whether slave or no.

No it’s not. You’re just twisting things to fit your agenda. If drinking an occasional alcoholic drink was sin, Paul would have told the Elders and Deacons(and all other members) to not drink, period.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Those are two separate things. Not the same thing at all. For instance, to fornicate occasionally, while not being a slave to it, is still sin. It is true that persons can get away with drinking alcohol for a little while, and not be slave to it, but that doesn't mean it isn't sin. Sin is still in the drinking of it, whether slave or no.

To fornicate is an obvious sin and is even listed in the Ten Commandments. Gluttony is also a sin. Do you get onto those who make three too many trips through the buffet? Those who you can’t see their belt because their belly is covering it up? Do you bust their chops, too?

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

I’ve seen many who blast ppl from the pulpit for drinking. Yet, they have four chins, their belly is halfway to their knees, and will never preach on gluttony.

 

[presidente]

If you had done a word study on that text, and connected it to Titus, in both contexts, you would understand it is not speaking about 'amount' of alcohol. It is speaking about not being altogether slaves (even constantly thinking on) of alcohol, as many of the pagans, Gentiles (in their various temples, and false worship, etc) and even some Jews were. It is stating that a Deacon (etc) could not hold that office, while being enslaved altogether to alcohol.

When you desire to see that word study and context, you let me know, otherwise, please feel free to study to shew thyself approved unto God, and let go your inebriated theology. You have 'beer-goggle' theology.

I don't wear 'beer goggles.' I was raised hearing the idea in church that beer and wine were evil, and that drinking them was a sin. My consumption of alcohol is limited to communion overseas, use in medicine (they put a little in some medicines) which I very rarely use, and cooking wine (the wine cooks out.) Then I read the Bible. I'm sure you can string some kind of argument together, asserting certain passages mean certain things and trying to get esoteric meanings out of the dictionary for why 'given to much wine' doesn't really man that.

 

[presidente]

To fornicate is an obvious sin and is even listed in the Ten Commandments

Fornication is a sin, but adultery is in the 10 commandments.

Gluttony is also a sin. Do you get onto those who make three too many trips through the buffet? Those who you can’t see their belt because their belly is covering it up? Do you bust their chops, too?

We should probably pay more attention to gluttony.

 

[presidente]

Yet, even Strong's shows, in very brief what I stated as being true, that being "drunk" with alcohol is not the only meaning of methuo (etc), thus here is a Lexicon:

"μεθύσκω+V 3-2-16-9-7=37Gn 9,21; 43,34; Is 34,5.7; 49,26 A: to make drunk [τινα] 2 Sm 11,13; to make drunk (metaph.), to drench [τι] Dt 32,42; to fill with [τινάτινος] (metaph.) Lam 3,15; to give to drink [abs.] Ps 22(23),5; to satiate [τινα] Sir 1,16; id. [τι] Jer 38(31),14; to saturate [τι] Ps 64(65),11; to water, to drench [τι] Sir 24,31 P: to be drunk Gn 9,21; id.(metaph.) Jdt 6,4; to be filled (with food) [τινι] Hos 14,8 τὸνποιήσαντάσεκαὶμεθύσκοντάσεἀπὸτῶνἀγαθῶναὐτοῦhe who made you and satisfies you with every good thing of his Sir 32,13 *Is 7,20 μεμεθυσμένῳdrunk, drenched (in blood)-⋄שׁכר for MT ⋄שׂכרhired; *Hos 14,8 (ζήσονταικαὶ) μεθυσθήσονται(they shall live and) be satiated-(⋄חיה and) רוה for MT ⋄חיה (pi.) they shall growCf. HELBING 1928, 150; →TWNT "

μεθύω+V 0-4-6-2-0=121 Sm 1,13; 25,36; 1 Kgs 16,9; 21(20),16; Is 19,14 pass. of μεθύσκω; to be drunk 1 Sm 1,13; to be watered, to be drenched (of a garden) Is 58,11 → TWNT - http://www.glasovipisma.pbf.rs/phocadownload/knjige/greek lexicon for the septuagint.pdf

Is there a context in which metheo is used in reference to wine where it is not talking about drunkenness

 

[presidente]

Seem to me this verse is for Israel in the OT in the context of not drunk and couse problem in the temple

But If we have problem with stomach, Paul advised timothy to drink little wine

This advised consistent with modern study that say moderat Red wine good for gut bacteria

Since alcohol is not the key component for this, can we get the same benefits from grape juice or grapes? You probably do not have the answer. The study was on red wine. Some of the other benefits come from substances found in grape juice also.

 

[Jackson123]

Since alcohol is not the key component for this, can we get the same benefits from grape juice or grapes? You probably do not have the answer. The study was on red wine. Some of the other benefits come from substances found in grape juice also.

I never read If grape juice good for gut bacteria

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Fornication is a sin, but adultery is in the 10 commandments.

We should probably pay more attention to gluttony.

I would lump fornication is with adultery. But I could be wrong.

 

[Whispered]

To fornicate is an obvious sin and is even listed in the Ten Commandments. Gluttony is also a sin. Do you get onto those who make three too many trips through the buffet? Those who you can’t see their belt because their belly is covering it up? Do you bust their chops, too?

Incorrect. Thou shalt not commit adultery is in the ten commandments. Not, thou shalt not have sex.
There is a difference between adultery and fornication.

 

[Whispered]

I would lump fornication is with adultery. But I could be wrong.

Yes, you are wrong.
What’s the difference between adultery and fornication?

In case you were wondering, the words adultery and adult are not etymologically related (in other words, adultery didn’t grow out of adult in the way that punditry grew out of pundit). Although both words come from Latin and share the same first five letters, adultery is from adulterāre (“to pollute, defile, commit adultery”), a word formed ultimately from the Latin elements ad- “to, near” and alter “other.” English adult comes from adultus, which is the past participle of the Latin word adolescere (“to grow up”).
In legal use there is a difference between adultery and fornication. Adultery is only used when at least one of the parties involved (either male or female) is married, whereas fornication may be used to describe two people who are unmarried (to each other or anyone else) engaging in consensual sexual intercourse.

 

[presidente]

If you had done a word study on that text, and connected it to Titus, in both contexts, you would understand it is not speaking about 'amount' of alcohol.

Btw, I have studied the passages. My guess is if most people do a word study on these passages, they will not bring with them an irrational desire to create an argument--pulling esoteric ideas from theoretical PIE derivations of English words if necessary-- to make drinking alcohol in moderation seem evil. Most people are not going to draw the same conclusions you do because they do not have the same assumptions.

 

[Jackson123]

Since alcohol is not the key component for this, can we get the same benefits from grape juice or grapes? You probably do not have the answer. The study was on red wine. Some of the other benefits come from substances found in grape juice also.

The Buzz about Grape Juice
OK, it's not wine. But it has many of its health benefits.

https://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/features/buzz-about-grape-juice

 

[presidente]

Those are two separate things. Not the same thing at all. For instance, to fornicate occasionally, while not being a slave to it, is still sin. It is true that persons can get away with drinking alcohol for a little while, and not be slave to it, but that doesn't mean it isn't sin. Sin is still in the drinking of it, whether slave or no.

Show us where the Bible says it is a sin.

Did Jesus drink grape juice-- which still had yeast in it, or wine, from which the yeast had been removed.

I mean 'wine' in the common English sense of the word, not the PIE word from which it was theoretically derived (for which there is no historical evidence, either, since it is a theoretically reconstructed protolanguage.)

 

[presidente]

HE hast made us unto our God kings and priests: A chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that we should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. WE As lively stones, are built up a spiritual house. Upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. The temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
(Rev 5:10; 1:6; 1Pet 2:5,9; Eph 2:20-22 1 Cor 6:19)

Jesus said a disciple is not above his master nor a servant above his Lord. It is enough for a disciple to be as his master and a servant as his Lord.

He also said the Son of Man came eating and drinking. He took the cup. He said to His disciples 'drink ye all of it.

It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.(Prov 31:4,5 KJV)

You left out part of the passage:
6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.
7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

The passage tells us that King Lemuel's mother gave him this advice. Does that mean that you, personally, are commanded to give strong drink to him that is ready to perish, wine to those that be of heavy of heart? Plenty of Christians are poor now who will b ea kingdom of priests in the future.

 

[wolfwint]

HE hast made us unto our God kings and priests: A chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that we should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. WE As lively stones, are built up a spiritual house. Upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. The temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
(Rev 5:10; 1:6; 1Pet 2:5,9; Eph 2:20-22 1 Cor 6:19)

What was the council for Kings and Priests?

It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.(Prov 31:4,5 KJV)

Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:
(Lev 10:9 KJV)

Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations: And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;
(Lev 10:9-10 KJV)
Neither shall any priest drink wine, when they enter into the inner court.
(Eze 44:21 KJV)

So We see that we as Kings are not to drink wine or strong drink at all lest their judgment be perverted. And we as Priests are not to drink wine or strong drink before we entered the inner court yard and the Tabernacle of the Congregation, the Temple.

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
(1Cor 3:16)

Well, then you should read proverbs 31, 6 ff. The context says why they should not drink wine, because of misuse it. In my understanding is this not an prohebition, but an adwise.

The same with Lev 10,9-10 and Eze 44,21 its forbiten in the temple for the priests.
Why we find such a prohebition not in the NT which speaks to gentile background christians which dont know the jewish law.
Also in the konzil in acts 15 where the apostles gave an statement what gentile christians should do from the jewish law.
Drinking from alcohol was not mentioned, but we would expect it when you would be right, dident you?

Why then gives Paul Timothy the adwise to drink wine becausee of his stomachproblem? 1. Tim.5,23
Why the lord himself turned water into wine? John 2,7-11
Nowhere it is forbiten for christians to drink .

 

[hornetguy]

HE hast made us unto our God kings and priests: A chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that we should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. WE As lively stones, are built up a spiritual house. Upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. The temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
(Rev 5:10; 1:6; 1Pet 2:5,9; Eph 2:20-22 1 Cor 6:19)

What was the council for Kings and Priests?

It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.(Prov 31:4,5 KJV)

Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:
(Lev 10:9 KJV)

Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations: And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;
(Lev 10:9-10 KJV)
Neither shall any priest drink wine, when they enter into the inner court.
(Eze 44:21 KJV)

So We see that we as Kings are not to drink wine or strong drink at all lest their judgment be perverted. And we as Priests are not to drink wine or strong drink before we entered the inner court yard and the Tabernacle of the Congregation, the Temple.

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
(1Cor 3:16)

You are trying to apply Old Law rules for priests to we of the "royal priesthood".... who are not under Levitical law. You cannot have it both ways. Either we are still under Levitical law, and need to appoint priests to take care of the priestly duties, or we are a NEW type of priest, that is not bound by the old law.

 

[hornetguy]

Those are two separate things. Not the same thing at all. For instance, to fornicate occasionally, while not being a slave to it, is still sin. It is true that persons can get away with drinking alcohol for a little while, and not be slave to it, but that doesn't mean it isn't sin. Sin is still in the drinking of it, whether slave or no.

This wins the award for the most absurd post of yours that I've read...... and that is saying a LOT.
You talk about rebuttal, but you still have not explained why Jesus made strong wine for a Jewish wedding feast, that anyone with a 6th grade education would understand.
Or, why the deacons were not to be given to MUCH wine.
Or why Timothy was told to take wine for his stomach ailments.

You refuse to read and understand the word of God as it is written, instead, you twist and parse words to fit YOUR pharisaical agenda.

You have convinced no one with your silliness and cut-and-past flooding of this thread.