Not By Works

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EleventhHour

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Judges1318 said:
Yes, the promise is for those who believe, not for those who used to believe, or never believed.
You must be believing to have salvation.

The verb 'believe' in the passage you quoted is in the present tense. That's mean real time, right now believing. It's the continuation of the very same believing you started out in.
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Of course sometimes we speak in present tense because it is present action or event

There are many places where the perfect tense is used to denote an event that has a continued result.
You have no argument based on this very fact.

Prime example being...

For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Ephesians 2:8
 
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Judges1318

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EleventhHour said:
Here maybe this will help you understand.

In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways (Hebrews 1:1).

Hebrews 1:1 The fathers and prophets.
Hebrews 1:5-14 Extensive Old Testament quotes.
Hebrews 3:12-19 Israel’s wilderness wanderings and unbelief.Hebrews 5:1-10
Aaron, the high priest, and Melchizedek.
Hebrews 6:13-20 Abraham and the promise.
Hebrews 7:1-28 Melchizedek, Abraham, and the Levites.
Hebrews 8:7-13 Old and new covenants.
Hebrews 9:1-27 The tabernacle, sacrifices, and cleansings.

Plainly obvious
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This is not exclusively Jewish knowledge.

"21For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.” - Acts 15:21

God fearing gentiles worshiping among the Jews were being taught all this for centuries in the Diaspora. Hebrews is a Christian book, not a Jewish one.
 
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Judges1318

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EleventhHour said:
No treats today for those who preach salvation can be lost... so I hope that cat is OSAS!!
:D
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When you and I get to the 4th type of soil that is when we can begin to have some kind of assurance that we will retain the word in uninterrupted believing all the way to the end.

"15But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop." - Luke 8:15
 
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Judges1318

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EleventhHour said:
There are many places where the perfect tense is used to denote an event that has a continued result.
You have no argument based on this very fact.
Click to expand...
Did you forget already?
You erroneously added to the definition of the Perfect tense to make it support osas.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
#130,526
#130,526
Judges1318 said:
This is not exclusively Jewish knowledge.

"21For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.” - Acts 15:21

God fearing gentiles worshiping among the Jews were being taught all this for centuries in the Diaspora. Hebrews is a Christian book, not a Jewish one.
Click to expand...
The letter is clearly connecting for the Hebrew believers the old and the new .... why because the Hebrews needed to understand it better.
Of course they were believers but there background and knowledge was that of Jewish practices.
 
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EleventhHour

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Judges1318 said:
Did you forget already?
You erroneously added to the definition of the Perfect tense to make it support osas.
Click to expand...

SIGH.... is this virus over yet!! :(

You find a post a someone who has in-depth knowledge of both Koine Greek and linguistics who can refute the most accepted understanding of perfect tense in Koine Greek.

You have made the assertion therefore the onus is on you to back it up.
 
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EleventhHour

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Judges1318 said:
When you and I get to the 4th type of soil that is when we can begin to have some kind of assurance that we will retain the word in uninterrupted believing all the way to the end.

"15But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop." - Luke 8:15
Click to expand...

I get to the 4th type of soil
Click to expand...
So works earn us assurance then?
 
BillG

BillG

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Feb 15, 2017
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#130,529
Judges1318 said:
When you and I get to the 4th type of soil that is when we can begin to have some kind of assurance that we will retain the word in uninterrupted believing all the way to the end.

"15But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop." - Luke 8:15
Click to expand...
How and why do we get to the 4th type of soil?
 
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Judges1318

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BillG said:
How and why do we get to the 4th type of soil?
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How? By retention and perseverance in the Word.

Why? Because that's been the plan all along from eternity past--to conform a nation of people into the image of Jesus, a people eager to do what is good.
 
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EleventhHour

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Judges1318 said:
How? By retention and perseverance in the Word.

Why? Because that's been the plan all along from eternity past--to conform a nation of people into the image of Jesus, a people eager to do what is good.
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So good works earn salvation then?
 
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Judges1318

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EleventhHour said:
So works earn us assurance then?
Click to expand...
Assurance of salvation comes from seeing Jesus in us by the Holy Spirit. Just as Sarah knew God was keeping His promise to her that she would have a son in a year from now. Her bulging belly gave her the assurance of God's promise to her. And so it is with us. We see Jesus growing in us in ever increasing deeds of righteousness and by that we have assurance that He is keeping His promise to us of having a Son who inherits the blessing on our behalf.

Security of salvation, on the other hand, comes from the efficacy of Christ's ministry in heaven for us and our continuing faith in that ministry.
 
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Judges1318

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EleventhHour said:
SIGH.... is this virus over yet!! :(

You find a post a someone who has in-depth knowledge of both Koine Greek and linguistics who can refute the most accepted understanding of perfect tense in Koine Greek.

You have made the assertion therefore the onus is on you to back it up.
Click to expand...
All you have to do is provide a reputable link to a definition of the Perfect Tense that states it means a completed action with results continuing up to the present and beyond into the future, and which will not end. That's what you need to do.

See, osas had to add that to the definition of the Perfect tense to make it so the results of the completed action of believing continue into the future, not just up to the present, and make those continuing results into the future never ending. It has to do that because that's not the definition of the Present tense.
 
BillG

BillG

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Judges1318 said:
Assurance of salvation comes from seeing Jesus in us by the Holy Spirit. Just as Sarah knew God was keeping His promise to her that she would have a son in a year from now. Her bulging belly gave her the assurance of God's promise to her. And so it is with us. We see Jesus growing in us in ever increasing deeds of righteousness and by that we have assurance that He is keeping His promise to us of having a Son who inherits the blessing on our behalf.

Security of salvation, on the other hand, comes from the efficacy of Christ's ministry in heaven for us and our continuing faith in that ministry.
Click to expand...
Is this the same Sarah

Genesis 18:12-15
12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, “After I have grown old, shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?”
13 And the Lord said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh, saying, ‘Shall I surely bear a child, since I am old?’ 14 Is anything too hard for the Lord? At the appointed time I will return to you, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.”
15 But Sarah denied it, saying, “I did not laugh,” for she was afraid.
And He said, “No, but you did laugh!”
 
BillG

BillG

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Genesis 16:2-5
2 So Sarai said to Abram, “See now, the Lord has restrained me from bearing children. Please, go in to my maid; perhaps I shall obtain children by her.” And Abram heeded the voice of Sarai. 3 Then Sarai, Abram’s wife, took Hagar her maid, the Egyptian, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan. 4 So he went in to Hagar, and she conceived. And when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress became despised in her eyes.
5 Then Sarai said to Abram, “My wrong be upon you! I gave my maid into your embrace; and when she saw that she had conceived, I became despised in her eyes. The Lord judge between you and me.”
 
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EleventhHour

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Judges1318 said:
All you have to do is provide a reputable link to a definition of the Perfect Tense that states it means a completed action with results continuing up to the present and beyond into the future, and which will not end. That's what you need to do.

See, osas had to add that to the definition of the Perfect tense to make it so the results of the completed action of believing continue into the future, not just up to the present, and make those continuing results into the future never ending. It has to do that because that's not the definition of the Present tense.
Click to expand...
And if I find proof of how this tense works in Koine Greek will you believe?
 
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Judges1318

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BillG said:
Genesis 16:2-5
2 So Sarai said to Abram, “See now, the Lord has restrained me from bearing children. Please, go in to my maid; perhaps I shall obtain children by her.” And Abram heeded the voice of Sarai. 3 Then Sarai, Abram’s wife, took Hagar her maid, the Egyptian, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan. 4 So he went in to Hagar, and she conceived. And when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress became despised in her eyes.
5 Then Sarai said to Abram, “My wrong be upon you! I gave my maid into your embrace; and when she saw that she had conceived, I became despised in her eyes. The Lord judge between you and me.”
Click to expand...
Remember, Paul says Sarah and Hagar represent the New and old covenants, respectively. Now read it with that in mind.
 
Melach

Melach

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Mar 28, 2019
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anyone know if everything is ok with dcontroversal i sent him a PM he hasnt answered me yet i sent it sunday. usually he reply to me really fast so just wondering.
 
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