Not By Works

[EleventhHour]

Although, not a direct comparison, I'm sure the Jews saw Paul's view of his and all other works in at least a similar light. I'm not trashing the faith of Christ, being perfect and sufficient for all sinners, mind you. And I'm certainly not discouraging belief in Christ. I can get aggressive in my descriptions where sin affects the human heart though.

Just to add to my other comment... total depravity presently understood is far different than what Calvin taught.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you want to compare, they will envy us, since we have the faith of Christ and his work on the cross to grant us imputed righteousness.

No we will envy them because they had faith not knowing Christ
oh and ps. Abraham had imputed righteousness also.

 

[EleventhHour]

I can't speak to that. I don't know that I hold all agreement with Calvin. I don't have a hateful view of humanity. The Trinity loved us enough to work out a plan for salvation, and I certainly don't claim a hold on the book of Life. I see the love of Christ all around me. Here too. But the truth is, not a single man has anything to present to God that would not condemn him to hell, works or faith. ***Edit*** apart from Christ.

No person can earn salvation or add to what Jesus has done for sure.

Belief is not a work ..not an act of the will ...it is passive.... belief is a condition though.

 

[Tellion]

Just to add to my other comment... total depravity presently understood is far different than what Calvin taught.

I'm compelled to agree. If we disagree on anything in this conversation, I'd like this to not be a point of contention between us.

 

[EleventhHour]

I'm compelled to agree. If we disagree on anything in this conversation, I'd like this to not be a point of contention between us.

Presently I only become "contentious" when people teach that the sacrifice of Jesus was necessary but not enough to save completely.

 

[Tellion]

No person can earn salvation or add to what Jesus has done for sure.

Belief is not a work ..not an act of the will ...it is passive.... belief is a condition though.

I hate to sound pathetic, I'm really not trying to whine about my fears, but agoraphobia. I KNOW that my fear is unreasonable. I know that the statistics of what could happen don't agree with the anxiety that getting in car makes me feel. It takes real effort to focus on what I know to be true. I disagree that belief is not a work, at least not in the sense that it does not require will. It takes real effort to face the true and real evidence that God has given me. And many ways, it's the same as what I face when I leave the house.

 

[Guojing]

No we will envy them because they had faith not knowing Christ
oh and ps. Abraham had imputed righteousness also.

He had to circumcise himself too in Genesis 17:11, otherwise he will be cut off from the covenant.

 

[Tellion]

I hate to sound pathetic, I'm really not trying to whine about my fears, but agoraphobia. I KNOW that my fear is unreasonable. I know that the statistics of what could happen don't agree with the anxiety that getting in car makes me feel. It takes real effort to focus on what I know to be true. I disagree that belief is not a work, at least not in the sense that it does not require will. It takes real effort to face the true and real evidence that God has given me. And many ways, it's the same as what I face when I leave the house.

Also, I recognize that this is testimony, and not hard fact. Take that as you will.

 

[EleventhHour]

I hate to sound pathetic, I'm really not trying to whine about my fears, but agoraphobia. I KNOW that my fear is unreasonable. I know that the statistics of what could happen don't agree with the anxiety that getting in car makes me feel. It takes real effort to focus on what I know to be true. I disagree that belief is not a work, at least not in the sense that it does not require will. It takes real effort to face the true and real evidence that God has given me. And many ways, it's the same as what I face when I leave the house.

I think you are mixing action, the will and belief.

We belief many things against our will...belief is passive.

Now Calvin did state that "fallen man is bereft of any image of God" ....his total depravity idea

 

[Tellion]

I think you are mixing action, the will and belief.

We belief many things against our will...belief is passive.

Now Calvin did state that "fallen man is bereft of any image of God" ....his total depravity idea

If your statement here about belief is true, and your previous statement about the requirement of belief is also true, then I personally would have no hope, as I cannot passively believe in God. I have a knowledge of God, but the doubt that comes with sin, the constant questioning of my human nature causes such turbulence in my faith. I'm not saying the effort itself as a work is a requirement, but if I had not God for that effort, I would passively dissolve to Hell, should such a passive belief be a requirement.

 

[EleventhHour]

If your statement here about belief is true, and your previous statement about the requirement of belief is also true, then I personally would have no hope, as I cannot passively believe in God. I have a knowledge of God, but the doubt that comes with sin, the constant questioning of my human nature causes such turbulence in my faith. I'm not saying the effort itself as a work is a requirement, but if I had not God for that effort, I would passively dissolve to Hell, should such a passive belief be a requirement.

Interesting.... when I was told Jesus paid for all my sins and I could never be perfect which is God's standard ... I was persuaded ...I did not will my belief

God strengthens our faith, for sure .... faith to faith

 

[Tellion]

Interesting.... when I was told Jesus paid for all my sins and I could never be perfect which is God's standard ... I was persuaded ...I did not will my belief

God strengthens our faith, for sure .... faith to faith

I think perhaps you understand my view of belief in a different context than I intended. I was specifically referring to the maintenance department... What we do daily, I would say, as a part of our daily living within salvation, motivated by the Spirit, is part of the salvation we receive, but as a requirement of day to day living, my view of maintained belief becomes very different

 

[eternally-gratefull]

He had to circumcise himself too in Genesis 17:11, otherwise he will be cut off from the covenant.

Then he earned salvation
not true

 

[Tellion]

I think perhaps you understand my view of belief in a different context than I intended. I was specifically referring to the maintenance department... What we do daily, I would say, as a part of our daily living within salvation, motivated by the Spirit, is part of the salvation we receive, but as a requirement of day to day living, my view of maintained belief becomes very different

I hope that doesn't sound as pretencious to you as it does to me now. I know that sometimes my literal execution can be convoluted. This applies both to the current quote and previous ones. Additionally if you did understand, I certainly don't mean to imply a lack of comprehension on your part.

 

[Tellion]

Pro tip: don't put bacon grease on a pan on a lit burner and forget.

 

[Elihoenai]

This statement is absolutely false (the part about Christians rejecting the OT) and this is further PROOF that you have no understanding of either the O.T. the N.T., what Christians believe and or the FACT THAT BOTH are needed to GRASP the truth of the bible.....man...you are so far off the mark.....

@dcontroversal, Do you believe and practice the Law of Moses?

 

[Elihoenai]

The Knights Templar is a Roman Catholic Order ? ? ?

WIKEPEDIA:

The Templars became a favoured charity throughout Christendom and grew rapidly in membership and power.
. . .

The Templars were closely tied to the Crusades; when the Holy Land was lost, support for the order faded.[12] Rumours about the Templars' secret initiation ceremony created distrust, and King Philip IV of France – deeply in debt to the order – took advantage of this distrust to destroy them and erase his debt. In 1307, he had many of the order's members in France arrested, tortured into giving false confessions, and burned at the stake.[13] Pope Clement V disbanded the order in 1312 under pressure from King Philip. The abrupt reduction in power of a significant group in European society gave rise to speculation, legend, and legacy through the ages.

The Knights Templars are Freemasons!

 

[Elihoenai]

We are under grace and not under the Law. Yes we have proper instruction from our Loving Father and our Lord but He in no wise will cast us out.

No man (we are man) can pluck us from His hand.

We are kept by His power.

We are saved by grace through faith. Not merit.


What you have been trying to do, is show people who trust in Christ and KNOW their Father that they don't belong to Him unless they do what you believe the scriptures to mean.


We have all read every word many many times.

The inspired scriptures flow in harmony unless someone were to believe what it is you are saying.

When you have been shown what others believe verses to mean, you then post out of context verses or side step issues.


You still haven't recovered from your first claim, that GOD needs to see works of righteousness.

We are justified before God appart from works of righteousness which we do. The righteousness of Christ is imputed to us who are less than perfect that we stand before God perfect EVEN AS CHRIST was perfect. From birth to standing before God, spotless.


In your pointing to james you are still wrong about your claim works which we do will help a man be justified before God.

Matthew 1:21 King James Version (KJV)

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.


If you are kept by the Power of Messiah/Christ, you would be Sinless. Yeshua/Jesus Saves his people from their Sins.

 

[Elihoenai]

indeed. One who thinks they are saved based on how good they are

This is fourth type of person:
4) The few not part of the mainstream Denominational and Non-Denominational churches deceived by the Satan/Devil and deluded into believing that they are in the Truth and are actually devouring Elohim's/God's sheep.

 

[Tellion]

This is fourth type of person:
4) The few not part of the mainstream Denominational and Non-Denominational churches deceived by the Satan/Devil and deluded into believing that they are in the Truth and are actually devouring Elohim's/God's sheep.

"No, you're a something something times a million!"