Are you a Trinitarian, and if so, can you defend the doctrine?

[Noose]

Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

Matthew 10:20 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

The Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of the Father..therefore the Spirit is co-essential with the Father and Son as well.

Where does the son indwell the Holy spirit and where does the Father indwell the Holy spirit?

Is comprehension a problem? Let me just accept that you can not point any scriptures that says this because now this is like the 3rd attempt and still you can't answer this question. So the idea that they indwell each other is not true.

That does not exempt you from the main issue. If the Father indwells Jesus, how many persons does Jesus become?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Where does the son indwell the Holy spirit and where does the Father indwell the Holy spirit?

Is comprehension a problem? Let me just accept that you can not point any scriptures that says this because now this is like the 3rd attempt and still you can't answer this question. So the idea that they indwell each other is not true.

That does not exempt you from the main issue. If the Father indwells Jesus, how many persons does Jesus become?

OK..I am not going to answer your nonsense questions anymore.

I showed you that the Father and Son mutually indwell one another.

The Holy Spirit is another Advocate who is like the Son, according to John's Gospel.

The Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of the Father.

It's pretty obvious, dude. Like I said, even Ray Charles can understand this.

 

[Noose]

Me too. So how would we explain that logically to someone who didn't believe it?

How can someone, even a god exist with no beginning?

So many things exist without beginning, example; darkness, silence - basically all immaterial things. God is spirit and spirit is an understanding. An understanding is immaterial therefore can not come into existence at some point in time but is eternal (not created).
Now, from the spirit of God man gets his being so in a sense, all men existed with God before creation.

Can i ask you a question?

Q. When do you think you were created? is it when your parents conceived you or when Adam was created?

 

[Noose]

OK..I am not going to answer your nonsense questions anymore.

I showed you that the Father and Son mutually indwell one another.

The Holy Spirit is another Advocate who is like the Son, according to John's Gospel.

The Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of the Father.

It's pretty obvious, dude. Like I said, even Ray Charles can understand this.

If the son can not indwell the Holy spirit just say so which means you are back tracking from your earlier position that they can indwell each other.

Well, indwelling each other or not is not even my argument, all i wanted to know is, if the Father indwells Jesus, does Jesus become two persons or does he remain to be one person?

This question you've not answered even after several attempt. The answer to this question will give a clear direction as to what Trinity really is.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

If the son can not indwell the Holy spirit just say so which means you are back tracking from your earlier position that they can indwell each other.

Well, indwelling each other or not is not even my argument, all i wanted to know is, if the Father indwells Jesus, does Jesus become two persons or does he remain to be one person?

This question you've not answered even after several attempt. The answer to this question will give a clear direction as to what Trinity really is.

No, Jesus is not two persons.

The human doesn't become Jesus and himself through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

I'm putting you on ignore because you are hopelessly confused and trying to confuse others.

 

[Noose]

No, Jesus is not two persons.

The human doesn't become Jesus and himself through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

I'm putting you on ignore because you are hopelessly confused and trying to confuse others.

In the 21st century, it is ignore, in the 1st century it was to round up the 'heretics' and burn them alive. I wonder how true this doctrine is if its proponents can not stand to be counted and explain it well with meekness, they have to be 'right' at all cost.

1 Peter 3:15But in your hearts sanctify Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give a defense to everyone who asks you the reason for the hope that you have. But respond with gentleness and respect,

Putting me on ignore is wishing away the elephant in the room.

If the Father (a person) indwells Jesus (another person) and Jesus still remains one person, then they are not distinct persons.

 

[Alertandawake]

In the 21st century, it is ignore, in the 1st century it was to round up the 'heretics' and burn them alive. I wonder how true this doctrine is if its proponents can not stand to be counted and explain it well with meekness, they have to be 'right' at all cost.

A well said response Noose. You have hit the nail on the head. The reality is with this trinity concept, this whole concept just does not hold. Do you know of the Shield of Trinity? You can check it out on Wikipedia. This entire concept of the trinity just contradicts itself.

This is why trinitarians cannot answer direct questions. Especially the questions I asked, because the moment they answer correctly, the whole trinity falls apart.

I'm putting you on ignore because you are hopelessly confused and trying to confuse others.

How is Noose confusing others? Is your reasoning for this is because Noose is asking questions? Is that why you want to ignore him? Or is it because he is not following blindly?

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

So many things exist without beginning, example; darkness, silence - basically all immaterial things. God is spirit and spirit is an understanding. An understanding is immaterial therefore can not come into existence at some point in time but is eternal (not created).
Now, from the spirit of God man gets his being so in a sense, all men existed with God before creation.

Can i ask you a question?

Q. When do you think you were created? is it when your parents conceived you or when Adam was created?

That's not something I've given a great deal of thought to. When was I created? On what level? biologically?

 

[Noose]

That's not something I've given a great deal of thought to. When was I created? On what level? biologically?

Well, you existed with God in the eternal past but at the right time, the spirit of God enabled your existence here on earth.

Psalm 104:29When You hide Your face, they are terrified; when You take away their breath, they die and return to dust. 30When You send Your Spirit, they are created, and You renew the face of the earth.

Job 27:3as long as my breath is still within me and the breath of God remains in my nostrils,

This part of you is uncreated.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

A well said response Noose. You have hit the nail on the head. The reality is with this trinity concept, this whole concept just does not hold. Do you know of the Shield of Trinity? You can check it out on Wikipedia. This entire concept of the trinity just contradicts itself.

This is why trinitarians cannot answer direct questions. Especially the questions I asked, because the moment they answer correctly, the whole trinity falls apart.



How is Noose confusing others? Is your reasoning for this is because Noose is asking questions? Is that why you want to ignore him? Or is it because he is not following blindly?

It's funny how anti-Trinitarians are the ones who liked your response.

Well, I doubt Noose is confusing many people, because sound Christians know that his anti-Trinitarian nonsense is simply that: nonsense.

I've already explained 20 different times how oneness theology is unbiblical, due to interpersonal activity between the Persons of the Triune God. However, he refuses to accept the explanation and acts as though it is unbiblical.

I have provided ample Scriptural proof regarding the falseness of anti-Trinitarian theology as well.

Cultists and oddballs have always hated the Trinity doctrine, though, so it is futile to argue with the entrenched anti-Trinitarian mentality. I know from my past as a cultist and anti-Trinitarian that they view themselves as being the ones who are right, and everyone else is wrong, despite 2000 years of church history and centuries of sound investigation by solid Christian brothers.

 

[Absolutely]

Those verses are perfect. They are of my Husband, Jesus the Christ.

Nor do they push any form of trinitarian polytheism, no.

I am not UPC nor do I follow men's teachings.

Whoever you might be sir, I will start the same as with all men;

Here is where we start, AT THE FIRST AND FOREMOST COMMANDMENT,
(so that you don't confuse yourself with your polytheistic teachers and their man made doctrines);


Mar_12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; >>>The Lord our God is one Lord<<<:

Joh_20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Eph_4:5 One Lord,

WHO is our "One Lord God" of ALL?

Act_10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by >>>Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all<<<

Now sir... do you agree with those verse?

I agree with them perfectly. Do you? If you do, we will move forward in our conversation.

One being takes the scroll from the other being.

Did you see that?

 

[Alertandawake]

Cultists and oddballs have always hated the Trinity doctrine, though, so it is futile to argue with the entrenched anti-Trinitarian mentality. I know from my past as a cultist and anti-Trinitarian that they view themselves as being the ones who are right, and everyone else is wrong, despite 2000 years of church history and centuries of sound investigation by solid Christian brothers.

I was going to say this about the trinitarians. Never in my life have I come across a mindset of a group of people who are incapable of understanding that God is One. They are the group of people who want to be right. Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD. Now what part about "one" is so difficult to comprehend?

By the way, before anyone wants to use the word "elohim" as a plural for more than one, that word can be used either as a singular or plural. Research shows in a singular Elohim could be used as a plural of majesty.

Exod 7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

The word "god" used here is the word elohim.

Another thing I have come across with trinitarians, they like to throw all sorts of verses that are at most implicit (implied instead of expressly stated, yet they ignore explicit verses (explicit meaning fully and clearly expressed, nothing implied). No matter how many implied verses you throw, even just one explicit statement overrides implied statements.

Now I am going to dissect the trinitarians belief right to the very core. Since you trinitarians believe Jesus is God, and God became a man (God meaning The Supreme Being in English) and accept that Jesus was crucified and killed, then going by that mindset, then you also accept that God got killed by his own creation, or God sacrificed himself to himself. This is what you trinitarians believe. Does this sound even logical? How does this even make sense?

By the clearly expressed verses you can see Jesus is monotheistic.

The Lord's Prayer, how did Jesus start the prayer? Our Father who art in heaven or did he say Our Father, Son and Holy Spirit in heaven?

In the verses when read in context in John 17.1-3 who did Jesus refer to the only true God? The Father or The Father, Son and Holy Spirit ?

 

[Dino246]

Now I am going to dissect the trinitarians belief right to the very core. Since you trinitarians believe Jesus is God, and God became a man (God meaning The Supreme Being in English)

Well... this should be entertaining. I look forward to laughing at the ridiculous explanations of one who starts with a fallacious equivocation.

 

[Blade]

Hey.. This is the word of God were talking about so.. its going to be on faith. Just going to have to take "the writer's" word for it.. or Gods word for it. I go with option two...that word is from God. I Like "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind"

Not hard to understand. Who is the word? Who ever it is was with God. So there are two. And the word was God. He was...He? With God? And Jesus had to go so the ...oh sweet Holy Spirit would come. Who ONLY talks what He hears of Jesus and the Father.

Lets back up.. hmm how about Joshua. He sees someone with a sword.. Just some angel? A host of Gods army? So we read "The commander of the LORD's army replied, "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ". Now it says he fell on his face and reverence/worshiped him. Yeah.. if you ever see a angel...go for it.. try to worship him see what happens lol.

We read about God and Abraham. God and two others. Now.. I am going to say.. it was not GOD.. the one no man has ever seen? Or Moshe (Moses). GOD again? God came down and talked face to face with man? I think Jesus was right.. no man has seen God. "No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. "

For myself I recognize I am just human. And were talking about GOD.. someone that has always been. He Christ are one. Not like me and my wife are one.. no.. when He says it.. they are ONE in the same yet three. Christ is.. if we saw God.. we would be POOF! Some day..

Really just sharing.. not trying to defend anything. I just point out a few verses and YOU then decide.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I was going to say this about the trinitarians. Never in my life have I come across a mindset of a group of people who are incapable of understanding that God is One. They are the group of people who want to be right. Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD. Now what part about "one" is so difficult to comprehend?

By the way, before anyone wants to use the word "elohim" as a plural for more than one, that word can be used either as a singular or plural. Research shows in a singular Elohim could be used as a plural of majesty.

Exod 7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

The word "god" used here is the word elohim.

Another thing I have come across with trinitarians, they like to throw all sorts of verses that are at most implicit (implied instead of expressly stated, yet they ignore explicit verses (explicit meaning fully and clearly expressed, nothing implied). No matter how many implied verses you throw, even just one explicit statement overrides implied statements.

Now I am going to dissect the trinitarians belief right to the very core. Since you trinitarians believe Jesus is God, and God became a man (God meaning The Supreme Being in English) and accept that Jesus was crucified and killed, then going by that mindset, then you also accept that God got killed by his own creation, or God sacrificed himself to himself. This is what you trinitarians believe. Does this sound even logical? How does this even make sense?

By the clearly expressed verses you can see Jesus is monotheistic.

The Lord's Prayer, how did Jesus start the prayer? Our Father who art in heaven or did he say Our Father, Son and Holy Spirit in heaven?

In the verses when read in context in John 17.1-3 who did Jesus refer to the only true God? The Father or The Father, Son and Holy Spirit ?

Christians only believe in one God..the Triune God.

It is your claim that the Trinity teaches more than one god, and this is false. Christians are monotheists.

And, regarding the word "elohim", your argument's origins is Jewish concerning Elohim.

Additionally, regarding "oneness" mentioned in Deut 6:4, while Christians believe in monotheism, the word used for "one" is "echad" and can refer to complex unity, such as one cluster of grapes with more than one grape on the cluster. There is nothing in Deut 6:4 that prohibits the complex unity of the Triune God.

If you are familiar with the word "LORD" in the OT, there are many OT Scriptures quoted with regards to Christ in the NT, which are referring to YHVH, the one true God, in the OT. For instance, if you trace Romans 10:13 back to Joel 2:28-32, you will find that this NT quote is a reference to YHVH, thus proving Jesus is YHVH. Additionally, the Father is called Elohim in Isaiah 53:6.

So, we know both the Father and Son are identified with YHVH. John called the Holy Spirit another Comforter (with Jesus being the Comforter as the referent).

It really isn't too hard to see that Oneness people hold a faulty theology.

I have compared it to a sock-puppet theology....the three Persons are simply sock-puppets that the Oneness god dons.

The problem is that Scripture displays relationships between the three Persons of the one God.

Regarding Jesus, as a human being he died on the Cross. YHVH did not die; Jesus died. There is no problem with this if you understand the dual nature of Christ. He is both God and glorified man.

One of Jesus' roles was to display the perfect Adam to believers, to give his brothers the ideal model to follow. In this role, his humanity was important, and he did not go strutting about declaring his godhood at every moment. He came as a humble servant, showing us how to relate to God. However, he was still God, and accepted worship, as he did from the blind man and as he does in Revelation.

In addition, you would really have to ignore the types and shadows of Scripture to fail to realize the deity of Christ. For instance, Jesus reveals his body as the reality of the tabernacle and Temple in John 1-2. He "dwelt" or "tabernacled" with mankind showing the glory of the tabernacle. Who lived in the tabernacle or Temple? He was "God with Us" as the word Immanuel means.

So, if you're a Unitarian, you need to go back and study the tabernacle and Temple, and then read John in light of this.

And, to be honest with you, as an anti-Trinitarian in my younger days, I find it amusing how anti-Trinitarians think they are the ones who are enlightened and "Trinitarians" are a bunch of rubes who have blindly accepted teachings of Roman Catholicism. The reality is that Trinitarians are right, whether some are ignorant of the doctrine or not, and anti-Trinitarians are the ones who are dwelling in darkness. Especially if they deny Jesus is God..that's like the bottom of the barrel.

By the way, if someone denies Jesus is God, they are not even Christian. So, if that is the path you are heading down, you need to be aware that those who deny Jesus is God are not believers whatsoever. My understanding is that Oneness believers don't deny Jesus is God, so I am perplexed if you are defending Oneness theology.

 

[Alertandawake]

Now according to Matt 26:36-46 Jesus prayed to God three times. Three times. Now you trinitarians who insist Jesus is God, are you trying to say that Jesus (or God) prayed to himself? That Jesus, who you accept as being God, rejected his own prayer? Do you have any idea how that sounds?

So by what manner of reason do you come to the conclusion that Jesus is God, when in fact Jesus prayed to God. Jesus prayed to his God. Because to me, it sounds like Jesus begged God not to go through with the crucifixion.

Now if Jesus was here today, and said to the people "The Father is the only true God", you trinitarians will be going around and saying something totally different. The reason I say this is because of the evidence I see here.

Feel free to throw whatever implicit verse you want, but at the end of the day according to the clearly expressed evidence available, Jesus admitted to having a God, Jesus can be seen praying to his God, Jesus admitted The Father is greater. And clearly expressed statements override statements that are ambiguous or implicit.

I will illustrate to make my point.

Example: If I was to say this is the only black color ferrari in existance, and the other ferraris are red in color, can there be any other black ferrari? A rational person will admit there is only one black ferrari, and the irrational person will come to the conclsuion that because red is a color and black is a color, they must be the same.

Now you trinitarians, I am not asking the impossible, all I am now asking is to show me a single verse where Jesus Christ himself said the following in these exacts words "I Jesus Christ am The Creator, The Supreme Being". No word games, no mental gymanstics.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Now according to Matt 26:36-46 Jesus prayed to God three times. Three times. Now you trinitarians who insist Jesus is God, are you trying to say that Jesus (or God) prayed to himself? That Jesus, who you accept as being God, rejected his own prayer? Do you have any idea how that sounds?

So by what manner of reason do you come to the conclusion that Jesus is God, when in fact Jesus prayed to God. Jesus prayed to his God. Because to me, it sounds like Jesus begged God not to go through with the crucifixion.

Now if Jesus was here today, and said to the people "The Father is the only true God", you trinitarians will be going around and saying something totally different. The reason I say this is because of the evidence I see here.

Feel free to throw whatever implicit verse you want, but at the end of the day according to the clearly expressed evidence available, Jesus admitted to having a God, Jesus can be seen praying to his God, Jesus admitted The Father is greater. And clearly expressed statements override statements that are ambiguous or implicit.

I will illustrate to make my point.

Example: If I was to say this is the only black color ferrari in existance, and the other ferraris are red in color, can there be any other black ferrari? A rational person will admit there is only one black ferrari, and the irrational person will come to the conclsuion that because red is a color and black is a color, they must be the same.

Now you trinitarians, I am not asking the impossible, all I am now asking is to show me a single verse where Jesus Christ himself said the following in these exacts words "I Jesus Christ am The Creator, The Supreme Being". No word games, no mental gymanstics.

"Before Abraham was, I am"
You would have to be familiar with the book of Exodus to understand what Jesus meant when he said that. It was a direct claim of divinity.

"If you've seen me you've seen the Father."

"I and my father are one and the same."

You aren't really claiming to be Christian while denying Jesus is God are you?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Now according to Matt 26:36-46 Jesus prayed to God three times. Three times. Now you trinitarians who insist Jesus is God, are you trying to say that Jesus (or God) prayed to himself? That Jesus, who you accept as being God, rejected his own prayer? Do you have any idea how that sounds?

So by what manner of reason do you come to the conclusion that Jesus is God, when in fact Jesus prayed to God. Jesus prayed to his God. Because to me, it sounds like Jesus begged God not to go through with the crucifixion.

Now if Jesus was here today, and said to the people "The Father is the only true God", you trinitarians will be going around and saying something totally different. The reason I say this is because of the evidence I see here.

Feel free to throw whatever implicit verse you want, but at the end of the day according to the clearly expressed evidence available, Jesus admitted to having a God, Jesus can be seen praying to his God, Jesus admitted The Father is greater. And clearly expressed statements override statements that are ambiguous or implicit.

I will illustrate to make my point.

Example: If I was to say this is the only black color ferrari in existance, and the other ferraris are red in color, can there be any other black ferrari? A rational person will admit there is only one black ferrari, and the irrational person will come to the conclsuion that because red is a color and black is a color, they must be the same.

Now you trinitarians, I am not asking the impossible, all I am now asking is to show me a single verse where Jesus Christ himself said the following in these exacts words "I Jesus Christ am The Creator, The Supreme Being". No word games, no mental gymanstics.

Notice that this guy is playing a Muslim game - the "exact phrase fallacy". It is very similar to the demand that Muslims make, that you must find Jesus saying "I am God" or they will not believe JEsus is God.

And, notice that he cannot understand the Trinity..the Trinity teaches that there is one God, in terms of being or essence, but there are three Persons.

The Father is God.
The Son is God.
The Holy Spirit is God.

I already presented Scriptures that specify Jesus is YHVH.
I already presented Scriptures that specify the Father is YHVH.

Since YHVH is the one true God, according to his own interpretation of Deut 6:4, then his theology is shown to be unbiblical if he claims Jesus is not God.

By the way, I just provided one set of verses. But, he knows that there is much more evidence in regards to Jesus being YHVH, accepting worship, etcetera.

So, apparently he is some kind of Unitarian or Arian, since he denies Jesus is God.

By the way, we are not saying Jesus is the Father, we are saying there is one God, who is Triune. This means he is a multi-personal God. There are three Persons that are co-essential, sharing the same essence or being.

The only reason this is incoherent to him is that he cannot grasp the idea that there is a multi-personal being.

However, Trinitarians know that God is a multi-personal being, whether that is easy to understand or not. I think it is easy to understand, if one accepts Scripture as their authority.

By the way, this person could be a regular Unitarian..he could be an Arian..he could also be a Muslim. It's hard to say with the info he has provided.

 

[Alertandawake]

John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

This is a clear reference there is 2 individual beings, DId Jesus do his own will, no he did not. He did the will of the one who sent him. Add who sent him? His Father sent him. His God sent him. So by your reasoning of Jesus = God, are you trying to tell me that God did the will of another? Are you trying to tell me The Supreme Being is taking orders from another?

You trinitarians make the statement that Jesus is God. Now provide the exact statement that Jesus Christ himself declares that he himself is The Supreme Being. Now if you cannot provide that exact statement, then say so.

I provided statements that are clear and explicit that show Jesus prayed to his God, and that Jesus admitted the Father is the only true God.

Now have the same manner of courtesy and respect and provide me with direct clear statements.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

This is a clear reference there is 2 individual beings, DId Jesus do his own will, no he did not. He did the will of the one who sent him. Add who sent him? His Father sent him. His God sent him. So by your reasoning of Jesus = God, are you trying to tell me that God did the will of another? Are you trying to tell me The Supreme Being is taking orders from another?

You trinitarians make the statement that Jesus is God. Now provide the exact statement that Jesus Christ himself declares that he himself is The Supreme Being. Now if you cannot provide that exact statement, then say so.

I provided statements that are clear and explicit that show Jesus prayed to his God, and that Jesus admitted the Father is the only true God.

Now have the same manner of courtesy and respect and provide me with direct clear statements.

People have answered you but you are ignoring the answers


John 14
6 Jesus answered, ‘I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.’

8 Philip said, ‘Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.’

9 Jesus answered: ‘Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, “Show us the Father”?