Who is the ones that is taken ? And who is the ones that are left ?

[dcontroversal]

Yes indeed so many scriptures that people have to ignore to make the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine fit their idea of reality..

Even in Luke 21 Jesus went through the tribulation events and how it would be during the times just before His return and at the end of revealing all the signs that pre-tribbers say we are going to avoid Jesus said for us Christians to::

Luke 21: KJV
28 "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

So after see these things followers of Jesus are going to be lifting up their heads with Hope for they will know their redemption is near.. How can they be looking up if they had already been raptured before these things have come to pass??? Of course their looking up in expectation because they are still alive and on earth and still waiting for the return of the LORD Jesus..

AMEN and I even missed a word in one of my points above....corrected below (bolded)....study the siege and fall of JERICHO the order is precise and so is the verbiage....an excellent OT picture of the order of the end of the age

j. THE denied and swept under the table the sign of the SIEGE and FALL of JERICHO and how that ORDER follows PRECISELY the 7 seals, 7 trumps, does not mention the 7 thunders and even uses the same verbiage of 1st Thessalonians 4 and 1st Corinthians 15 (GREAT TRUMP, SHOUT, ASCENSION, VICTORY)

 

[dcontroversal]

Yes indeed so many scriptures that people have to ignore to make the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine fit their idea of reality..

Even in Luke 21 Jesus went through the tribulation events and how it would be during the times just before His return and at the end of revealing all the signs that pre-tribbers say we are going to avoid Jesus said for us Christians to::

Luke 21: KJV
28 "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

So after see these things followers of Jesus are going to be lifting up their heads with Hope for they will know their redemption is near.. How can they be looking up if they had already been raptured before these things have come to pass??? Of course their looking up in expectation because they are still alive and on earth and still waiting for the return of the LORD Jesus..

AMEN and I agree........they love to twist this and say it is NOT the rapture but the 2nd coming.....it is utterly ridiculous.......

Was
IS
IS TO COME <---ONE coming and all things must jive with ONE coming not two <--they twist this as well

 

[Absolutely]

AMEN......no scriptures in context support some imaginary return before the Great Tribulation.......even the words IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation of those days are skewed by the imminent returners.....below are scriptural truths skewed by imminent returners...

a. The Grandsville Sharp in 2nd Thessalonians 2 and the described GATHERING TOGETHER unto HIM AFTER the man of sin is revealed
b. The total rejection of Matthew 24, Luke 21, Mark 13 <--AFTER the TRIBULATION of those days and the GATHERING by the ANGELS
c. The parable of the wheat and tares and how GOD begins to deal with the TARES first before the ANGELS gather the wheat
d. The absolute ignorant argument that the church is not mentioned after Rev 4. when the WHOLE book is written to the church
e. The absolute rejection of who the saints/elect are and their mention and twist in Revelation
f. The denial of the word KEEP written unto the FAITHFUL in the LORD'S churches and twist to make it imply REMOVE
g. THE absolute IDIOCY of saying or believing the modern CHURCH will not face the persecution of the GT in light of the last 2000 years of history
h. The denial of the LAST day statement applied unto the resurrection/change and even mentioned BY JOB and when this day takes place
i. The denial of the 7th and FINAL trump and how the LAST trump does not mean the LAST trump
j. THE denied and swept under the table the sign of the SIEGE and FALL of JERICHO and how that ORDER follows PRECISELY the 7 seals, 7 trumps, does not mention the 7 thunders and even uses the same verbiage of 1st Thessalonians 4 and 1st Corinthians 15 (GREAT TRUMP, ASCENSION, VICTORY)
k. The denial of the fact that we thru MUCH tribulation must enter the kingdom
l. THE absolute ignorance of making WRATH and TRIBULATION the same thing
m. The ignorance of believing the wrath of GOD has arrived at the 6th seal because LOST MEN HIDING say it has arrived
n. WHILE ignoring that the WRATH IS ANNOUNCED IN HEAVEN as having arrived at the 7th TRUMP
o. The fact most rely on two scriptures out of context to lay the foundation for the imminent return and then build the above quagmire on said scriptures
p. The fact they try to make the Day of the Lord and Day of Christ two different days and 2 different comings by Christ
q. ETC.

I can GO ALL day long with inconsistencies, skewed scriptures, denied contexts and words by the imminent returners.......and I dogmatically believed it and defended it UNTIL I actually had to study the bible through twice a year in Seminary and seen so many things that did not jive.......

You trumpet centered guys.
Are you saying the last trump bbn is the seventh trump of rev 11?
It is apparently mid trib.

 

[Absolutely]

Yes indeed so many scriptures that people have to ignore to make the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine fit their idea of reality..

Even in Luke 21 Jesus went through the tribulation events and how it would be during the times just before His return and at the end of revealing all the signs that pre-tribbers say we are going to avoid Jesus said for us Christians to::

Luke 21: KJV
28 "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

So after see these things followers of Jesus are going to be lifting up their heads with Hope for they will know their redemption is near.. How can they be looking up if they had already been raptured before these things have come to pass??? Of course their looking up in expectation because they are still alive and on earth and still waiting for the return of the LORD Jesus..

All postribs I have seen ignore our verses .

Show me any postrib teacher interpret the 10 virgin parable or center on the bride/groom dynamic.

When Jesus says "before the flood" or "lot" you guys change the subject.

In fact you guys have no verses for a postrib rapture

 

[bud62]

Look, commentaries can be useful and informative up to a point but you shouldn't let someone else's world view and prejudice colour your view of scripture. You can pick up a lot of unnecessary religious baggage that way. The traditions of men can lead you astray.

I've heard people so ignorant that they repeat things from commentaries as though the commentaries themselves were scripture. And people who can't understand the difference between a translator's footnote and an entire accompanying page of commentary.
You should own at least one bible with no commentary attached.

Mat 24:30-42
Luke 17:34-37 The BEST one THAT makes it plain to me. GOD BLESS as HE sees FIT
And their proable Are but Luke makes it plain anough for me

I Don't us commentaries.,It's like GOD bring

Oh and the rapture is true also.. It is called the catching up in the Bible.. It happens on the day of the return of Jesus.

Another reason that the rapture would not work at all. Is when JESUS leaves The sanctuary in Heaven, Where HE is now, And taking care of our sins by applying HIS BLOOD to our SINS, as LONG as we are in obedience to HIS WORD. There will NOT BE no one in the HEAVENLY SANCTURY TO take care of NO more SINS. SO ON one can be saved once HE Comes out of the SANCTURY. WHERE JESUS is our HIGH PREAST And I believe GOD knows BEST . GOD bless as HE sees fit. HELP US LORD TO GET READY. FOR YOUR COMING.

 

[bud62]

This is a correction of what I MISSED ABOVE. I DON"T HOW BUT I'M SORRY
I'M going to haft to look a little better
This was not right IT was to say, FOR the lord will pass through to smite the Egpyians , AND when HE seeth the BLOOD uponthe lintel. and on the two side posts the LORDD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your hoses to smite you . sorry I don't see it,
GOD bless as HE sees fit

To THOSE that HAVE seen some of the TRUTH, A WARNING, Satan will DO every thing POSABLE TO take that TRUTH FROM your HEARTS AND MINDS , SO YOU need TO keep studying AND ask GOD TO HELP you see HIS truths IN the BIBLE AND STAND ON THEM . The truth is what HE sanctifies US BY, JESUS says that will come Immediately , TO try to take it out of our HEARTS, GOD bless as HE sees fit'

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

p. The fact they try to make the Day of the Lord and Day of Christ two different days and 2 different comings by Christ

I just wanted to pop in here and try to clarify what the pre-trib viewpoint actually is, on this point ^ you are making. Because that is not accurate to the pre-trib view (how you've worded this).

"The Day of Christ" and "the Day of the Lord" are not two different comings (at two different points in time) as though "the Day of Christ" is the earlier point in time, and "the Day of the Lord" is the 7-yrs-LATER point in time (tho it surely involves that as well, as in, it INCLUDES that also as well as the entire MK age). This is not the accurate picture.

It is more like (to explain it most simply):

--"the Day of Christ" (starting at a particular point-in-time) is the VERTICAL;

--"the Day of the Lord" is HORIZONTAL (i.e. the earthly time-period which commences immediately following our rapture, will unfold upon the earth, involves a period-of-time of JUDGMENTS [running concurrently with the above], which are then followed by a period-of-time of BLESSINGS [ALL "earthly-located"]); [and note: "the Day of the Lord" is what most agree should be the wording in 2Th2:2's "[purporting that] the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT"... for this is an "earthly-located" time period, just as in its other uses elsewhere; and note also that its parallel wording "IN THAT DAY," when used in the same contexts, refers to the SAME earthly-located time period... just as THIS context ALSO shows]


That is, they START at almost the identical point in time (lock-step, one could say), but unfold in different LOCATIONS (running concurrently, for the first ASPECT of the entire LONG DURATION of the whole), and have distinct PURPOSES, etc.




I know you will not agree; I am just placing this here for the purpose of CLARIFYING the actual position, for the readers' sake.

 

[bud62]

I just wanted to pop in here and try to clarify what the pre-trib viewpoint actually is, on this point ^ you are making. Because that is not accurate to the pre-trib view (how you've worded this).

"The Day of Christ" and "the Day of the Lord" are not two different comings (at two different points in time) as though "the Day of Christ" is the earlier point in time, and "the Day of the Lord" is the 7-yrs-LATER point in time (tho it surely involves that as well, as in, it INCLUDES that also as well as the entire MK age). This is not the accurate picture.

It is more like (to explain it most simply):

--"the Day of Christ" (starting at a particular point-in-time) is the VERTICAL;

--"the Day of the Lord" is HORIZONTAL (i.e. the earthly time-period which commences immediately following our rapture, will unfold upon the earth, involves a period-of-time of JUDGMENTS [running concurrently with the above], which are then followed by a period-of-time of BLESSINGS [ALL "earthly-located"]); [and note: "the Day of the Lord" is what most agree should be the wording in 2Th2:2's "[purporting that] the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT"... for this is an "earthly-located" time period, just as in its other uses elsewhere; and note also that its parallel wording "IN THAT DAY," when used in the same contexts, refers to the SAME earthly-located time period... just as THIS context ALSO shows]


That is, they START at almost the identical point in time (lock-step, one could say), but unfold in different LOCATIONS (running concurrently, for the first ASPECT of the entire LONG DURATION of the whole), and have distinct PURPOSES, etc.




I know you will not agree; I am just placing this here for the purpose of CLARIFYING the actual position, for the readers' sake.

I know that Satan will try to take the truth from the PEOPLE . And I know that this teaching about the Rapture AND OTHER TEACHING MAKES GODs WORD A LIE in many places. AND I just ask them to stand on the WORD, NOTHING I say BUT GODs WORD.
Satan trys to make the simple things in the BIBLE HARD to under STAND , If they would JUST get out of most of these FALSE DOCORING Books AND GET BACK THE HOLY BIBLE, They would see the TRUTH without ALL of these FALSE DOCTORINGS
GOD BLESS YOU ALL WITH THE TRUTH I PRAY.

 

[dcontroversal]

I just wanted to pop in here and try to clarify what the pre-trib viewpoint actually is, on this point ^ you are making. Because that is not accurate to the pre-trib view (how you've worded this).

"The Day of Christ" and "the Day of the Lord" are not two different comings (at two different points in time) as though "the Day of Christ" is the earlier point in time, and "the Day of the Lord" is the 7-yrs-LATER point in time (tho it surely involves that as well, as in, it INCLUDES that also as well as the entire MK age). This is not the accurate picture.

It is more like (to explain it most simply):

--"the Day of Christ" (starting at a particular point-in-time) is the VERTICAL;

--"the Day of the Lord" is HORIZONTAL (i.e. the earthly time-period which commences immediately following our rapture, will unfold upon the earth, involves a period-of-time of JUDGMENTS [running concurrently with the above], which are then followed by a period-of-time of BLESSINGS [ALL "earthly-located"]); [and note: "the Day of the Lord" is what most agree should be the wording in 2Th2:2's "[purporting that] the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT"... for this is an "earthly-located" time period, just as in its other uses elsewhere; and note also that its parallel wording "IN THAT DAY," when used in the same contexts, refers to the SAME earthly-located time period... just as THIS context ALSO shows]


That is, they START at almost the identical point in time (lock-step, one could say), but unfold in different LOCATIONS (running concurrently, for the first ASPECT of the entire LONG DURATION of the whole), and have distinct PURPOSES, etc.




I know you will not agree; I am just placing this here for the purpose of CLARIFYING the actual position, for the readers' sake.

You are exactly right, I won't agree because PAUL AND PETER tie all three days together as ONE DAY......Jesus is Lord, Christ and GOD and on the SAME DAY all three commence!!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I know that Satan will try to take the truth from the PEOPLE . And I know that this teaching about the Rapture AND OTHER TEACHING MAKES GODs WORD A LIE in many places. AND I just ask them to stand on the WORD, NOTHING I say BUT GODs WORD.

Satan trys to make the simple things in the BIBLE HARD to under STAND , If they would JUST get out of most of these FALSE DOCORING Books AND GET BACK THE HOLY BIBLE, They would see the TRUTH without ALL of these FALSE DOCTORINGS
GOD BLESS YOU ALL WITH THE TRUTH I PRAY.

Wow, that sure didn't take you long to examine every usage/occurrences of both of these phrases "to see if these things be so".

I guess I should say (since you compel me, by your assumptions that I derive my understanding from "outside sources"), that I have studied the issue for something like 45 years (and for the first 25 of those years I had no access to "commentaries"--so I can't really place the blame upon those! ). I've not come across any arguments convincing me, 1) that there IS NO Rapture (as you seem to suggest); or 2) that the pre-trib rapture is not correct; In fact, the more I study it in greater and deeper detail (throughout the years) the more clearly I see it (I've tried to supply many of those things in my past posts, outside of this thread even). I've found that a lot of the mis-understandings on this topic come from "mis-defining" [/using unbiblical] terms and phrases, mis-applications of contexts, blurring-together distinct items, and so forth... Once these are seen clearly (sorted out correctly), the misunderstandings begin to fall away... and the clear picture emerges.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You are exactly right, I won't agree because PAUL AND PETER tie all three days together as ONE DAY......Jesus is Lord, Christ and GOD and on the SAME DAY all three commence!!

The INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" (of the MANY MORE of those Jesus said would follow on from that INITIAL one) is when it STARTS [/ARRIVES]

(aka SEAL #1 [unfolding on the earth], when Jesus will open it from His position IN HEAVEN--It does not commence/start when He Himself is present on the earth/heading down to there). It ARRIVES when the "whose COMING/ADVENT/ARRIVAL/PRESENCE/PAROUSIA" of the man of sin (IN HIS TIME) commences at the START of the 7-yr trib years (the "DARK"/"DARKNESS"/"IN THE NIGHT" aspect OF the entire long time period).

Again, wherever "the Day of the Lord" and "IN THAT DAY" are used in the SAME CONTEXTS, they speak of the SAME "time-period" (which involves a DURATION of time, in every case, including here in 2Th1 & 2, where BOTH phrases are USED TOGETHER again, and speak of the SAME [FUTURE] time-period, a DURATION of time, which is made obvious from the text itself, here [where these two phrases "the DOTL" and "IN THAT DAY" are used together]).


It is not merely "a singular 24-hr day"


[see how Zech14 uses "IN THAT DAY"... "IN THAT DAY"... "IN THAT DAY" repeatedly]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ IOW, it is not correct to view/define the phrase "the DOTL" as merely the point in time of His Second Coming to the earth (i.e. His "RETURN" [to the earth] point in time). It encompasses much more than this (I defined it earlier).




Again, this is for the readers' sake. It is not necessary for you personally to agree with me.

All I ask is for the readers to examine the Scriptures, to see if what I've presented is so.

 

[bud62]

To THOSE that HAVE seen some of the TRUTH, A WARNING, Satan will DO every thing POSABLE TO take that TRUTH FROM your HEARTS AND MINDS , SO YOU need TO keep studying AND ask GOD TO HELP you see HIS truths IN the BIBLE AND STAND ON THEM . The truth is what HE sanctifies US BY, JESUS says that Satan will come Immediately , TO try to take it out of our HEARTS, GOD bless as HE sees fit'

 

[bud62]

Wow, that sure didn't take you long to examine every usage/occurrences of both of these phrases "to see if these things be so".

I guess I should say (since you compel me, by your assumptions that I derive my understanding from "outside sources"), that I have studied the issue for something like 45 years (and for the first 25 of those years I had no access to "commentaries"--so I can't really place the blame upon those! ). I've not come across any arguments convincing me, 1) that there IS NO Rapture (as you seem to suggest); or 2) that the pre-trib rapture is not correct; In fact, the more I study it in greater and deeper detail (throughout the years) the more clearly I see it (I've tried to supply many of those things in my past posts, outside of this thread even). I've found that a lot of the mis-understandings on this topic come from "mis-defining" [/using unbiblical] terms and phrases, mis-applications of contexts, blurring-together distinct items, and so forth... Once these are seen clearly (sorted out correctly), the misunderstandings begin to fall away... and the clear picture emerges.

You Mite look at About all the Preist That study And probably knew the Old Testament better then , MOST people today, And they where teaching all kinds of false doctoring And did not know that it was the time for JESUS and all that HE did to show them that HE was the CHRIST , Yet THEY nail HIM to the CROSS . And read about the teachers And preachers In the BIBLE, I do BELIEVE That it's going be at the time of JESUS's coming the second time, it will be the same,
And you still are not believing What JESUS, said, But choosing to put your thoughts over what JESUS said, But I see that the BIBLE TELLS me these will happen, And there are many places in the BIBLE that tells US that the RAPTURE, IS other then these few we have looked at GOD bless as HE sees fit for you. I don't clam to be wise at all, Like I said I am one of the very very very less, But I do believe GOD Has me. What you do with it is between you & GOD,

 

[oyster67]

You trumpet centered guys.
Are you saying the last trump bbn is the seventh trump of rev 11?
It is apparently mid trib.

I don't think that "last trump" = "7th Trump".

1 Corinthians 15
15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

This is the only place in NT where the term "last trump" is mentioned. I believe that it signifies the end of the Church Age, ie. the Pre-Trib Rapture. We are then glorified, are married to the Groom (Jesus), and then return to Earth with Him to rule and reign with at the end of the 7 year Trib. I believe that we are taught to have our lamps full, trimmed, and burning so that we won't miss the Rapture.

I see that there are very few things that we agree on 100%, but the Blood of Jesus (Atonement) is what really matters most.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You Mite look at About all the Preist That study And probably knew the Old Testament better then , MOST people today, And they where teaching all kinds of false doctoring And did not know that it was the time for JESUS and all that HE did to show them that HE was the CHRIST , Yet THEY nail HIM to the CROSS . And read about the teachers And preachers In the BIBLE, I do BELIEVE That it's going be at the time of JESUS's coming the second time, it will be the same,

And you still are not believing What JESUS, said, But choosing to put your thoughts over what JESUS said, But I see that the BIBLE TELLS me these will happen, And there are many places in the BIBLE that tells US that the RAPTURE, IS other then these few we have looked at GOD bless as HE sees fit for you. I don't clam to be wise at all, Like I said I am one of the very very very less, But I do believe GOD Has me. What you do with it is between you & GOD,

Do you not believe anything outside of the Gospels was "what Jesus said"? Because, recall what He'd said just before going to the Cross, in His words of in John 16,

12 I have yet many things to say to you, but you are not able to bear them now. 13 But when He the, Spirit of truth, shall come, He will guide you into all the truth. For He will not speak from Himself, but whatever He may hear, He will speak. And He will declare to you the things coming. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take from that which is Mine and will disclose it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Because of this, I said that He will take from that which is Mine and will disclose it to you.


So, in view of that ^ , what do you make of the following? :

Revelation 1:6 -

"and He has made us a kingdom, priests to His God and Father--to Him be the glory and the dominion to the ages of the ages. Amen."


Revelation 5:9 -

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation [this verse has "us" per the manuscript evidence I provided in an earlier post; the following verse tells "where" and mentions again the word "priests"--this being spoken by others (but regarding the "elders") in an antiphonal singing]; they have "stephanon/crowns" which Paul stated he would receive a crown "IN THAT DAY" (the item that parallels "the Day of Christ [VERTICAL, so to speak]), not meaning, "upon his death" point in time, as some suggest and they are sitting on "THRONES" which indicates something specific... [keep in mind also the passage stating "know ye not that we shall JUDGE ANGELS"]


Then note that Rev5:8 had JUST SAID -

"And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints."



Where did these get those "crowns," and why are they sitting on "THRONES," and why are they saying "hath redeemed US," and what does the wording in 5:4 indicate where it says "WAS FOUND" (like, a "searching judgment" has already taken place... This is the SAME expression used in the event of Paul's "trials/arrest" and standing before their [human] Bema in the latter parts of Acts). Why are these humans shown IN HEAVEN *before* Jesus "STANDS to JUDGE" [Isa3:13, etc] which "judgments" will thereafter unfold upon the earth... Explain this.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

… and if we are not outright opposed to considering "commentaries," I present (again) this brief one by Wm Kelly on 1 Chronicles 25 -

[quoting]

"In 1 Chronicles 25 we have the service of song. "Moreover, David and the captains of the host separated to the service of the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy with harps, with psalteries, and with cymbals." It is called "prophesying" because it so directly brought in God, which is the emphatic meaning of prophesying. "And the number of the workmen according to their service was" - so and so. There were twenty-four courses of the singers. Now, this was another remarkable change. In the tabernacle, song was not the characteristic feature, but sacrifice; but in the temple in the day of glory, the song of triumph is the new and suitable feature."

--William Kelly, 1 Chronicles 25 [see esp vv.1,6-7,31]

[note: v.1 "with harps [see Rev5], with psalteries ['earthen vessels'], and with cymbals"...hmmm...]


[end quoting]

 

[Dave-L]

Look, commentaries can be useful and informative up to a point but you shouldn't let someone else's world view and prejudice colour your view of scripture. You can pick up a lot of unnecessary religious baggage that way. The traditions of men can lead you astray.

I've heard people so ignorant that they repeat things from commentaries as though the commentaries themselves were scripture. And people who can't understand the difference between a translator's footnote and an entire accompanying page of commentary.
You should own at least one bible with no commentary attached.

Throw away all commentaries because some bad ones exist?

 

[Dave-L]

I said: "When you study the doctrine of man and not what God teaches". We have the Holy Spirit of God to be our Guide and our Teacher. We do not need man to teach us. We should do as the Bereans to study the word of God our self and not trust others to study the Bible for us.

But God placed teachers in the Church. You are teaching me right now. Why not go with the pros who have a lifetime of learning that squares with the Creeds?

 

[Dave-L]

The Holy Spirit will guide us if we acknowledge Him and listen.

So pros don't do this?