Not By Works

[OneOfHis]

So is the premise of this “without works” doctrine based upon the premise that one is saved by faith without substance?

No. Saved appart from works of righteousness. As scripture says. God IMPUTES the righteousness of Christ to us who are His and have been born again by grace through faith.

How one is saved, and how one of Gods children OUGHT to walk are two separate issues.

Many who reject the righteousness of Christ seek to establish their own righteousness through "many wonderful works in His name" but will be found with blemish and God never knew them.

 

[John146]

Christ Jesus is the substance of our salvation NOT our works!!

The cross is the substance of His faith, the faith of Christ. It's His faith that justifies the believer.

 

[KJV1611]

Do you believe Genesis 22 or the doctrines of men? I'm going with Scripture.

I can say this with certainty, I don't understand everything in the bible. As I said before I don't know why Genesis 22 was written that way but it is your assumption that because God said "now I know" means that he didn't know before that time.

The omniscience of God is not man-made, it's all over the bible. God is never up in heaven wringing his in worry over whether some human will do what he's supposed to do or not.

 

[John146]

Okay I have to go.

One more time......

No one will ever know you have faith unless you manifest it.

How others receive that information is a secondary issue.

Without your "works" it will never be known.

Faith cannot be seen without works.

Again another simple concept.

Man has no authority to justify my salvation. Do you play judge on others based upon their works? I hope not. You'd probably be wrong most of the time.

 

[EleventhHour]

I think we have discussed this before. Yes maam.
The word was planted in them. "receive with meekness the engrafted word" Obviously, they have yet to do so.
Obviously they were not living as new creations, explains why James had to write such a long letter. They needed their souls saved. That's why James is asking them to receive with meekness the engrafted word.

Okay, well then your doctrine will have many problems being coherent, because much like the church in Corinth the people sinned.
They needed instruction, rebuking and exhortation.

Special note ******

I find it interesting that while you do not think works can justify before men, you think evidence of sin is enough to take away justification.

NOT good.

 

[EleventhHour]

Man has no authority to justify my salvation. Do you play judge on others based upon their works? I hope not. You'd probably be wrong most of the time.

Says you, who just quoted James 1:21 to prove a lack of justification..... hilarious!!

 

[John146]

I can say this with certainty, I don't understand everything in the bible. As I said before I don't know why Genesis 22 was written that way but it is your assumption that because God said "now I know" means that he didn't know before that time.

The omniscience of God is not man-made, it's all over the bible. God is never up in heaven wringing his in worry over whether some human will do what he's supposed to do or not.

True, but God wants us to choose Him, to be obedient unto His word. Our responses to His word dictates His response to us. We can never "surprise" God or catch Him off guard. He knows us better than we know ourselves.

 

[John146]

Okay, well then your doctrine will have many problems being coherent, because much like the church in Corinth the people sinned.
They needed instruction, rebuking and exhortation.

Special note ******

I find it interesting that while you do not think works can justify before men, you think evidence of sin is enough to take away justification.

NOT good.

And Paul clearly told them they were washed, sanctified, and justified.

 

[John146]

Okay, well then your doctrine will have many problems being coherent, because much like the church in Corinth the people sinned.
They needed instruction, rebuking and exhortation.

Special note ******

I find it interesting that while you do not think works can justify before men, you think evidence of sin is enough to take away justification.

NOT good.

Fruit inspectors are not biblical.

 

[OneOfHis]

Man has no authority to justify my salvation. Do you play judge on others based upon their works? I hope not. You'd probably be wrong most of the time.

Strawman.

You are seeming less and less honest over these past two pages.

 

[EleventhHour]

@OneOfHis carry on if you have time.

I have a date with the sidewalk...... don't ask its complicated

 

[OneOfHis]

@OneOfHis carry on if you have time.

I have a date with the sidewalk...... don't ask its complicated

Lol I actually am out of time as well.

Either way the truth clear as day.

 

[John146]

Says you, who just quoted James 1:21 to prove a lack of justification..... hilarious!!

Again, do you have the authority to play judge? Can you really determine someone's salvation based upon you seeing them do something good? Really?

 

[KJV1611]

Yes! The Church Age believe is justified the moment they believe the gospel. James is addressing the nation of Israel in the tribulation. That's my whole point.

Remember, the question James is responding to is: 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Paul says yes to the body of Christ.
James says not faith only, but works to the twelve tribes in the tribulation.

There is no such thing as the church age, the church has always been around. Christ was in the CHURCH in the wilderness.

Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Those in the wilderness drank from that spiritual Rock - Christ.
(1Co 10:4) And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

There is no SECOND GOSPEL for the nation of Israel. All people have always been saved EXACTLY the same way - grace through faith.

 

[OneOfHis]

You're speaking of the opposite.
🤦‍♂️


Peter denied Jesus -> lack of a righteous work and it was seen before man as lack of faith.


In james there is teaching AGAINST a loveless (lack of righteous works) to SHOW the love of God in us as witnesses. (His body)

You're either being dishonest or making a strawman out of confusion.


No you can never be seen before a brother or sister as "justified as a true believer" by works. Lack of love (which manifests as works) before man will cause you to be less than blameless. They can doubt your faith. If you are blameless, before these men your faith is justified. They have nothing to point at to say "oh look, hypocrit... liar... Jesus wouldn't want that how can you say you love Him"...

^ for john

 

[KJV1611]

True, but God wants us to choose Him, to be obedient unto His word. Our responses to His word dictates His response to us. We can never "surprise" God or catch Him off guard. He knows us better than we know ourselves.

So you do agree that God knew Abraham would offer up Isaac?

 

[EleventhHour]

Again, do you have the authority to play judge? Can you really determine someone's salvation based upon you seeing them do something good? Really?

ARRGG......

Show your faith by your works.

Speaking is showing our faith...how long would Christianity last if we did not speak to it, match that with works and it is powerful.

Even before I was a Christian in high school I saw this ... I did not understand it but I saw it and wondered!

 

[OneOfHis]

Fruit inspectors are not biblical.

Your strawman is distorting your view of what she said. I explained it three times to you I believe.

The first you deleted some of my post and said bingo to one small bit. The next you made a strawman.. then again continued to impute beliefs to others.

No one is talking about judging salvation or being a fruit inspector. They are speaking of a less than perfect man judging you falsely based on lack of evidence via Gods love shining through you. (manifesting as works)

 

[John146]

There is no such thing as the church age, the church has always been around. Christ was in the CHURCH in the wilderness.

Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Those in the wilderness drank from that spiritual Rock - Christ.
(1Co 10:4) And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

There is no SECOND GOSPEL for the nation of Israel. All people have always been saved EXACTLY the same way - grace through faith.

The nation of Israel was God's church. Israel was the assembly of God's physical people. Under the NT, the body of Christ is the Church. The nation of Israel was not part of the body of Christ. There was no body to be in yet. Many of them perished from God.

Grace through faith in what? In who? Did Israel in the OT put their faith and trust in the d,b,r of Jesus for their sins? That's our gospel today. It's specific. Words matter to God. The gospel today is specifically how Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again the third day.

 

[John146]

ARRGG......

Show your faith by your works.

Speaking is showing our faith...how long would Christianity last if we did not speak to it, match that with works and it is powerful.

Even before I was a Christian in high school I saw this ... I did not understand it but I saw it and wondered!

Again, can you determine who is saved by their works? yes or no?