Not By Works

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lightbearer said:
You are not reading the posts to which you are responding to.
I don't believe that. It is in the present tense and it is it is plural.The text in Hebrews should read if we are sinning willfully after we received the knowledge of the truth . It is a state in which a person is. It is who they are.

If we are sinning willfully we are his adversaries because we trampled underfoot the Son of God and counted the blood of the Covenant a unholy thing and done Despite UNTO the Spirit of Grace.



"But the just one shall live by faith;" "and if HE is drawing back," "My soul is not pleased in him." But we are not of those withdrawing to destruction, but of faith, to the preservation of the soul.
(Heb 10:38-39)

The word for drawing back is in the 3rd person singular. Proper grammar dictates if a word is used within the same sentence that a Noun or Adjective is used that is put forth in the singular that is the Subject, that the third person singular is reference to the subject. That would be the "just one" in the previous clause.
That is why most translation translate the passage with a "if he" or an "and if he" in relation to the word translated draws back. Because proper grammar dictates it. Incidentally the NET2's New Testament general letters is part of the work of one who is considered to be one of best Greek Scholars of our era. Daniel B. Wallace of the Dallas Seminary'. He would not have his name on it unless he approved. It is listed here along with numerous other translation that have that part of the translated properly.

But my righteous one will live by faith, and if he shrinks back, I take no pleasure in him.
(Heb 10:38 NET2)


But the just will live (by) faith; and if he should draw back, my soul is not delighting (in) him.
(Heb 10:38 GUV)

But My righteous one will live by faith. And if he draws-back, My soul is not well-pleased with him”.
(Heb 10:38 DLNT)

And it should also be noted that one can not draw back from something UNLESS THEY ARE IN A PLACE TO DRAW BACK FROM. And that place in which they were is the Just that was living by faith.

So with all that being stated one must reason that either you are right AND GOD through the Holy Spirit inspired the writer of Hebrews to use bad grammar and sentence structure. Which would make the text imperfect. Or you have been misunderstanding the text.
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Your false idea is built on a few false narratives.



When God addresses us in His body... the church

He addresses the goats and the sheep.

The wheat and the tares.

He does this for our own benefit.


You often just look at being in the church as "being believers" when it suits you then when it doesnt you seem to forget and assume some verses which give us descriptive verses of the two sorts as requirements and disqualifications.🤦‍♂️


I have read your nonsense and word games... there is just no truth or power in it...you can't decieve anyone who knows God with these ideas


Just as the parable of Jesus as the vine and us as the branches was a demonstration of His power in His own


These verses (hebrews is a letter) in hebrews 10 specifically address how now there is no more sacrifice for willful sin

Jesus has paid it all

those who are His enemies will be made His footstool and we His children are those who believe until salvation


those who draw back are not of us... if they were they would NO doubt have continued with us
 
mailmandan said:
You have shown me your biased interpretation, but I have already proved my argument in the context of Hebrews 10 and by properly harmonizing scripture with scripture. You are not fooling me or any of my brothers and sisters in Christ on Christ Chat who are in the OSAS camp, but if you are satisfied with your contradiction of Hebrews 10:10,14 with Hebrews 10:29, then feel free to carry on with your biased agenda.
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No bias here. I just read what it says.
Your doctrine is the one that has to scramble to make sure no one thinks it might actually mean what it's says.
 
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EleventhHour said:
Do you want to discuss this?

I disagree she states ever so softly
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You believe we are of THEM who draw back into perdition?

You dont believe THEY are the enemies in verse 13 or the adversaries in verse 27?

I am headed to work soon so I don't know about having a back and forth but if you think we ARE of them who draw back into perdition and not of them who believe unto salvation...


Please type out what you believe and Ill read all of it with an open mind and try to see your perspective... maybe the disagreement isnt what i think it is...
 
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OneOfHis said:
those who draw back are not of us... if they were they would NO doubt have continued with us
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The saved Galatians drew back from justification in Christ and went back to the law for justification. So we know 1 John 2:19 can't mean what osas says it means.
 
Judges1318 said:
The saved Galatians drew back from justification in Christ and went back to the law for justification. So we know 1 John 2:19 can't mean what osas says it means.
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You have two words right here..
"Saved Galatians"

Now if only you could understand those two words.:unsure:
 
Judges1318 said:
You know I'm right. ;)
Deep down, you know I'm right.
Osas is the doctrine that has to make it so that many scriptures do not actually mean what they say.
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This is quite the assertion....considering conditional salvationists make the cross and resurrection of Jesus of limited value.

So who really diminishes the scriptures?
 
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An FYI, no this site is nothing like that other site, which closed down, that I was on for years. This site has more Christians on it and less atheists. Plus no moderators "lording" it over the "general population."
 
lightbearer said:
I thought it would to much for you with each issue being addressed so let's do it in smaller chunks. So once again
Please follow along......
"But the just one shall live by faith;" "and if HE is drawing back," "My soul is not pleased in him." But we are not of those withdrawing to destruction, but of faith, to the preservation of the soul.
(Heb 10:38-39)

The word for drawing back is in the 3rd person singular. Proper grammar dictates if a word is used within the same sentence that a Noun or Adjective is used that is put forth in the singular that is the Subject, that the third person singular is reference to the subject. That would be the "just one" in the previous clause.
That is why most translation translate the passage with a "if he" or an "and if he" in relation to the word translated draws back. Because proper grammar dictates it. Incidentally the NET2's New Testament general letters is part of the work of one who is considered to be one of best Greek Scholars of our era. Daniel B. Wallace of the Dallas Seminary'. He would not have his name on it unless he approved. It is listed here along with numerous other translation that have that part of the translated properly.

But my righteous one will live by faith, and if he shrinks back, I take no pleasure in him.
(Heb 10:38 NET2)

"But the just shall live by faith;" "and if he draws back," "My soul is not pleased in him. But we are not of those withdrawing to destruction, but of faith, to the preservation of the soul.
(Heb 10:38-39 LITV)

But my just man liveth by faith: but if he withdraw himself, he shall not please my soul.
(Heb 10:38 DRB)

But my righteous one shall live by faith: And if he shrink back, my soul hath no pleasure in him.
(Heb 10:38 ASV)

But my righteous one shall live by faith: And if he shrink back, my soul hath no pleasure in him.
(Heb 10:38 RV)

but my righteous one will live by faith, and if he turns back, my soul will take no pleasure in him."
(Heb 10:38 ISV)

But the just will live (by) faith; and if he should draw back, my soul is not delighting (in) him.
(Heb 10:38 GUV)

But My righteous one will live by faith. And if he draws-back, My soul is not well-pleased with him”.
(Heb 10:38 DLNT)

And it should also be noted that one can not draw back from something UNLESS THEY ARE IN A PLACE TO DRAW BACK FROM. And that place in which they were is the Just that was living by faith.

So with all that being stated one must reason that either you are right AND GOD through the Holy Spirit inspired the writer of Hebrews to use bad grammar and sentence structure. Which would make the text imperfect. Or you have been misunderstanding the text.
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You are disregarding one CRUCIAL FACT. That is NOT ALL REGULAR ATTENDERS of any Church are NOT ALL BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS.

ONLY BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS will be taken to HEAVEN. The Non-Born Again Disciples will eventually fall away or draw back.

Many do not understand BORN AGAIN, and never bother to learn what it is. Others, are not willing to Surrender Control of their lives to the LORD out of Agape LOVE FOR HIM, those individuals Remain in Control of their own lives, and think they are real Christians, just because they sit on a pew regularly. The shock of all shocks will be the MANY, left behind, when He comes in the clouds to Call Out HIS BRIDE, to go to the Wedding of the LAMB in Heaven.


Matthew 7:13-14 (ESV)
13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.


Every person on those two roads are CHURCH-Goers. NON-Christians are not even mentioned here.
Here is the proof:


Matthew 7:20-23 (ESV)
20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ {non-Born Again Disciples, which only means Followers} will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 On that day many {the same MANY as VERSE 13 mentioned} will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you {that inner, personal, relationship with HIM, that only happens when you are immersed {Baptized} into the Spiritual Body of Jesus Christ, when you are Born Again}; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

John 3:3 (ESV)
3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

1 Corinthians 12:13 (HCSB)
13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body— . . .


And those disciples who have not been Born Again, will be left Behind.
 
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EleventhHour said:
This is quite the assertion....considering conditional salvationists make the cross and resurrection of Jesus of limited value.

So who really diminishes the scriptures?
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Eternal IN-securists have their agenda and do not properly interpret scripture within context and they also do not properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching their conclusion on doctrine. In the end, those who are looking to save themselves at the back door are looking for this.
 
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lightbearer said:
Look another one that does nothing but talk about people, slander and name call because they have no real argument against the truth being stated here. May the LORD have mercy on us all.

There is no Once saved always saved in the sense that ya'll believe.

For if WE (the writer and all to whom he is addressing in the Church) are sinning willfully after that WE(the writer and all to whom he is addressing in the Church) have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries (those sinning willfully). He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye (the adversaries, those sinning willfully), shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
(Heb 10:26-29)
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Listen Lightbar......Your pseudo twisty gospel that you peddle is not found in scripture.....neither is the sinless perfectionists crap that you peddle, nor are we commanded to keep the sabbath and for sure NO ONE keeps the law.....so....you can make drivilistic posts like above.....and yank verses out f context, deny context and twist the truth into a false Lightsaber pretzel all you want.....most here know that you really do not know what you are talking about.....and yes....the bible does 100% set forth eternal security regardless of your lack of ocular insight into this particular truth!
 
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