Not By Works

[Judges1318]

The measure of grace in a person's life is not the sin they get away with, but rather the sin they no longer have in their life. Grace teaches us to say 'no' to ungodliness and worldly passions. But the apostate church of today says grace teaches us to say 'yes' to ungodliness and worldliness without fear of being assigned a place with they hypocrites where there is gnashing of teeth because they believe once you are saved you can not lose your salvation, no matter what.

Even Calvin didn't teach that!

 

[CherieR]

There are some lovely things said on here, not.

I have seen lovely things said on here. And also things not lovely said. If you look for the lovely, you will find it.

" Think of all the beauty still left around you and be happy"
- Anne Frank

 

[EleventhHour]

Oh, that's ok. They are free to disobey Jesus. They are going to heaven. But "He's the source of eternal salvation to those who obey Him." The Bible is full of such works heresy, lol.

We have obeyed Jesus.... have you?
We obeyed when we believed and took Him at His word ....that

.... no work will earn salvation....we are saved by believing in Jesus for eternal life based upon His complete work ... apart from any and all works.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

The measure of grace in a person's life is not the sin they get away with, but rather the sin they no longer have in their life. Grace teaches us to say 'no' to ungodliness and worldly passions. But the apostate church of today says grace teaches us to say 'yes' to ungodliness and worldliness without fear of being assigned a place with they hypocrites where there is gnashing of teeth because they believe once you are saved you can not lose your salvation, no matter what.

Even Calvin didn't teach that!

Reformed churches teach that obedience is the necessary fruit of being united with Christ.

Actually Reformed churches focus more on obedience than non-Reformed churches as a whole.

This idea that Reformed churches are immoral is basically a lie. I've attended both kinds of churches and the Reformed churches focus more on obedience.

I haven't attended Pentecostal or holiness churches, though. I think their obedience is more legalistic, and based on their list of rules, such as skirt length, rolling your hair up in a bun, not playing cards of any type, not going to swim parties, etcetera.

 

[EleventhHour]

The measure of grace in a person's life is not the sin they get away with, but rather the sin they no longer have in their life. Grace teaches us to say 'no' to ungodliness and worldly passions. But the apostate church of today says grace teaches us to say 'yes' to ungodliness and worldliness without fear of being assigned a place with they hypocrites where there is gnashing of teeth because they believe once you are saved you can not lose your salvation, no matter what.

Even Calvin didn't teach that!

Back to the problems with church, eh Ralph?
Is that why you devised your dogma.

If not grace then law....you do know this right?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I think the basic problem with misunderstandings related to obedience center on union with Christ.

Those who are greasy gracers only acknowledge legal union, meaning that they believe that Jesus' righteousness has been legally imputed to the believer. But, they deny that believers are united with Christ in a vital union that produces good works.

Legalists often think that they produce works by their own resources, and not through their vital union with Christ. Some of them even deny legal righteousness.

But, Reformed people have the best balance..they acknowledge legal union, but also acknowledge vital union that transforms them through their union with Christ. They are attached to the vine, and they DO produce fruit as a result.

So many are hung up on simple legal union with Christ, and not vital union with Christ. They are like a half-baked cake.

 

[BillG]

If they are like you, they will be nice kids, say hello from the guy who discovered the real Robin of Loxley.

Ooh you know Kevin Costner, did you get his autograph

We have 4 kids.
All of them are belivers.
Walking in their own faith in Jesus.

This may sound weird but if I died tonight I would die with a content heart.

With all 4 when born I gave them back to God. Lifted up in my hands and prayed.

Ok at times at times I have taken them back but God has had to remind me trust me.

God is so good.

My ancestry is Muslim.

Exodus 20:5-6
5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Exodus 20:6
6 But I lavish unfailing love for a thousand generations on those who love me and obey my commands.

I thank God that he will bless my kids and theirs.

I am so thankful.

 

[PS]

We are disagreeing on God's truth....which we are called to defend.

Being nice and kind in words is lending some credence to your false dogma ... I myself am not able to do that.... your dogma is insulting to the Grace of God by which we are saved and held.

Pagans disagree on how to properly poach an egg I see no correlation to defending the Gospel but maybe you do.

I have noticed.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Now as I said to you a few posts back in a response you made to a post I made to you.

I said to you "I am not having a dig at you"
If I wasn't doing it then why would I do that now?

That is not my style.

The fact is that there are people on here who insult generally but also personally.

So here is an example of the reality.

I believe in ES/OSAS or whatever you want to call it.

The generalisation is that those who believe that are teaching a license to sin and it's covered.

The personal is when it's directed to an individual.
That has happened to me.
Openly on the forum and behind the scenes via PM.
Been called a hyper-grace, greasy gracer and I'm sending people to hell as a result.

And the fact is that even though I deny that and think such teaching is abhorrent and I would walk away from a who walked in that way after correction is totally ignored.

So in a sense generalisation insults can also be taken personally.

But rest assured I was not having a dig at you.

If I was then you would know it.

I think the perfect balance is found in the doctrine of union with Christ.

Union with Christ teaches that the believer is one with Christ in a legal sense, meaning that the believer is accounted righteous because Jesus' righteousness is his righteousness. Additionally, Jesus' sonship is his sonship, and Jesus' inheritance is his inheritance.

Union with Christ also teaches that the believer is one with Christ in a vital sense, meaning that they share the same life. The believer and Jesus are joined in a spiritual sense, and because of this, the believer produces fruit.

John 15, Romans 6, I Cor 6, Ephesians 2 are just some of the places that support this teaching.

There is a good book called Union with Christ, by Rankin Wilbourne, that focuses on this theme. Also, a new book called Identity in Christ, by Jonathan Landry Cruse, also covers a similar theme.

Here is a set of nine audios covering this:

https://www.sermonaudio.com/search....ries&subsetitem=The+Christian's+True+Identity

https://www.sermonaudio.com/search....subsetcat=series&subsetitem=Union+With+Christ


To be honest, I'm puzzled by all the argumentation about faith vs. works, and I believe the issues are largely a result of a lack of understanding of union with Christ/identity in Christ.

 

[Judges1318]

Reformed churches teach that obedience is the necessary fruit of being united with Christ.

Why isn't the reformed church calling this new osas out for what it is?

Actually Reformed churches focus more on obedience than non-Reformed churches as a whole.

Why isn't the reformed church calling out the new osas movement when they say focusing on obedience is works salvation?

This idea that Reformed churches are immoral is basically a lie.

Why isn't the reformed church separating itself from those of the reformed persuasion who are indeed immoral and using osas (their version) as the excuse to be immoral?

I haven't attended Pentecostal or holiness churches, though. I think their obedience is more legalistic, and based on their list of rules, such as skirt length, rolling your hair up in a bun, not playing cards of any type, not going to swim parties, etcetera.

You only see that in a couple of denominations.
They hardly characterize the church.
I do not know of any person, with the exception of maybe one, who believed that his works literally purchased his salvation. I don't think it fair to lump people who believe their works are the expected and necessary outcome of faith, legalistic or not (or else it's not really faith) with the few, virtually non-existent people who think their salvation is literally bought and paid for with their works of righteousness.

By far, the church is becoming characterized by it's flippant attitude toward sin, thinking that grace makes it so you can sin even to the point of hardening your heart in unbelief and you will still be saved. I almost want to take the word 'becoming' out of that last sentence, but I will let it stand for now. This forum is proof of where the church as a whole is at concerning sin. The great falling away is happening. And the last twenty years shows it's happening fast.

 

[Lightskin]

Millions of Israelites who had received the gifts and calling of God have died and gone to hell. How does that show us that God's gifts and calling being irrevocable means what osas says it means?

I don’t care what osas says; I care what Jesus says, that whoever believes in Him has eternal life. Christianity 101.

 

[PS]

Ooh you know Kevin Costner, did you get his autograph

We have 4 kids.
All of them are belivers.
Walking in their own faith in Jesus.

This may sound weird but if I died tonight I would die with a content heart.

With all 4 when born I gave them back to God. Lifted up in my hands and prayed.

Ok at times at times I have taken them back but God has had to remind me trust me.

God is so good.

My ancestry is Muslim.

Exodus 20:5-6
5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Exodus 20:6
6 But I lavish unfailing love for a thousand generations on those who love me and obey my commands.

I thank God that he will bless my kids and theirs.

I am so thankful.

Good testimony, praise God, especially coming from a Muslim background. I would love to hear your full testimony, but not on here.

People have always thought Robin Hood aka Robin of Loxley was a fictional character, a bit like God I suppose, but He was real. He took part in the Peasant's Revolt at York when the citizens rebelled against the Lord mayor called John Gisburn, and there is a distinct possibility he killed King Richard II in Pontefract Castle. Quite exciting really.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Why isn't the reformed church calling this new osas out for what it is?


Why isn't the reformed church calling out the new osas movement when they say focusing on obedience is works salvation?


Why isn't the reformed church separating itself from those of the reformed persuasion who are indeed immoral and using osas (their version) as the excuse to be immoral?


You only see that in a couple of denominations.
They hardly characterize the church.
I do not know of any person, with the exception of maybe one, who believed that his works literally purchased his salvation. I don't think it fair to lump people who believe their works are the expected and necessary outcome of faith (or else it's not really faith) with the few, virtually non-existent people who think their salvation is literally bought and paid for with their works of righteousness.

By far, the church is becoming characterized by it's flippant attitude toward sin, thinking that grace makes it so they can not sin to the point of hardening the heart in unbelief. I almost want to take the word 'becoming' out of that last sentence, but I will let it stand for now. This forum is proof of where the church as a whole is at concerning sin. The great falling away is happening. And the last twenty years shows it's happening fast.

Firstly, I think it's easy to become a self-righteous Pharisee in regards to works.

Secondly, Reformed people have addressed easy believism. John MacArthur addressed the issues regarding no-Lordship salvation strongly in several books.

Thirdly, if you don't focus on union with Christ, you're a half-baked cake yourself. The greasy gracers are half-baked, and so are the legalists.

Fourthly, I am not sure what you mean by immoral Reformed churches..if you are talking about groups like PCUSA who ordain homosexuals and things like that, the people I associate with don't even consider them to be Reformed or Christian. By the way, there are a few PCUSA churches that don't agree with their denomination's stance on those issues and have voted against them. But, I am not sure why they don't separate totally from the denomination. One Reformed Baptist church I attended recently left the Southern Baptist Convention due to issues regarding women leadership and "woke church" stuff, so I think they have done what they can.

Fifthly, Reformed theology teaches "perseverance of the saints" and not "once saved always saved". Some uninformed Reformed people may be confused on that point, though, especially new believers. Additionally, when I say "Reformed", I am not talking about guys at Dallas Theological Seminary who believe in eternal security, but do not believe in the other four points, like Norm Geisler, Charles Ryrie, Zane Hodges, Robert Wilkin..those guys are not really Reformed.

If you really want to focus on this issue, study "Free Grace Movement" and "Grace Evangelical Society"..they are the main group I think you should be criticizing. Southern Baptist Convention is another group that harbors those types of guys...although about 20 percent are Reformed and would not agree with "once saved always saved".

The Reformed position is that God saves the person, and gives them eternal salvation, but this salvation necessarily results in holiness. All believers pursue holiness and are ultimately glorified....but none of them are saved without pursuing holiness. It is part of being on the vine..their life is joined with Jesus' life and they produce fruit as a necessary result.

Any other view is a half-baked cake.

 

[EleventhHour]

It means grace is not a license to sin with impunity as the new osas says it is.

There is no new OSAS.

 

[Judges1318]

The believer and Jesus are joined in a spiritual sense, and because of this, the believer produces fruit.

Ultimately, the lack of fruit is the evidence that person is NOT in vital union with Christ, just as the presence of that fruit is the evidence they are. This is strongly denied in the new osas doctrine spreading throughout the church today. In it, fruit and works give no indication whatsoever as to whether or not a person is in vital, saving union with Christ.

To be honest, I'm puzzled by all the argumentation about faith vs. works

I am too.
It used to be understood that there was a necessary correlation between faith and works for faith to be considered genuine. It was not even conceivable to think otherwise.
Not anymore. Now you get roasted as an evil, unbelieving works salvationist if you suggest genuine faith is signified by how it acts.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

It means grace is not a license to sin with impunity as the new osas says it is.

It would be interesting to know how many OSAS guys actually think obedience isn't important.

I would point them to James, where it says faith without works is dead.

If someone isn't concerned about obedience, then they likely aren't saved.

However, you have others who think God appointed them fruit inspectors, and they console themselves with condemning others while failing to examine their own faults. I don't want to be in either camp.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Ultimately, the lack of fruit is the evidence that person is NOT in vital union with Christ, just as the presence of that fruit is the evidence they are. This is strongly denied in the new osas doctrine spreading throughout the church today. In it, fruit and works give no indication whatsoever as to whether or not a person is in vital, saving union with Christ.


I am too.
It used to be understood that there was a necessary correlation between faith and works for faith to be considered genuine. It was not even conceivable to think otherwise.
Not anymore. Now you get roasted as an evil, unbelieving works salvationist if you suggest genuine faith is signified by how it acts.

Yeah..I can relate to your remarks.

Actually, I did jail ministry for a while and I told one group that if a person doesn't produce works, that's evidence they are not likely a believer. One of those guys had an angry fit in the block after I left, because he thought you "should have works" but they are not a necessary fruit of salvation. Apparently it was so insulting to him that he lost his temper and flew into a fit.

I was shocked that anyone would even challenge that.

This is such a difficult topic, though, because if a legalist is talking to them, he's not giving them a solid message, and telling them they are still "under the law", and may not be telling them about how their union with Christ provides the means for obedience, and if an easy-gracer is talking to them, they are not giving them a right message, and is telling them that obedience isn't important.

Sooner or later I realized that "union with Christ", both legal and vital, is the perfect balance and I started teaching on that more than anything else. There's really not much they can say about that. God commands certain things in Scripture, but he also provides the means for fulfilling the command, which is through the person's union with Christ. That's really what it all comes down to.

 

[BillG]

It means grace is not a license to sin with impunity as the new osas says it is.

Is there an old OSAS?

 

[Judges1318]

All believers pursue holiness and are ultimately glorified....but none of them are saved without pursuing holiness.

This thread seems to exist for the very purpose of debunking this very belief.
(Of course that will be denied.)

 

[Judges1318]

Actually, I did jail ministry for a while and I told one group that if a person doesn't produce works, that's evidence they are not likely a believer. One of those guys had an angry fit in the block after I left, because he thought you "should have works" but they are not a necessary fruit of salvation. Apparently it was so insulting to him that he lost his temper and flew into a fit.

That is exactly what is happening in this thread.
This thread seems to exist for the very purpose of going on that rant.
It's almost like the opening post was inviting the challenge, not making a helpful contribution to believers.