Born Again

[oyster67]

I promised some of the newcomers we would start a thread about being 'Born Again'. This is it

John 3
3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you [of] heavenly things?
3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.
3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

I will begin the discussion with a question...Why do you think Nicodemus came at night?

 

[Chris1975]

Vesre

3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Let's also look at the above 2 verses and the distinction between them......

 

[oyster67]

Vesre


Let's also look at the above 2 verses and the distinction between them......

(referring to v3 and v5)...

Yes, 'born again' shows that being born the first time is not enough. If we do not experience more from the Lord, then we cannot enter His Kingdom. People differ on what exactly 'born of water' is (I think it is coming forth from your mother's water), but the main point is that this is not enough to enter the Kingdom of God. Being born the second time is something we must choose to enter into. Can anyone tell us why? (Hint: the answer is in v.19).

 

[mailmandan]

1 Peter 1:23 - having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,

 

[Grandpa]

I promised some of the newcomers we would start a thread about being 'Born Again'. This is it


I will begin the discussion with a question...Why do you think Nicodemus came at night?

Because he was a pharisee and a ruler of the jews. Probably a bit embarassed to be seen asking the Lord Jesus questions he didn't know the answers to.

Maybe even embarassed to be seen in the presence of the Lord since the Lord was obviously against the pharisees and those who considered themselves "wise" and "holy".

 

[bud62]

I promised some of the newcomers we would start a thread about being 'Born Again'. This is it

John 3
3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you [of] heavenly things?
3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.
3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

I will begin the discussion with a question...Why do you think Nicodemus came at night?

He feared the JEWS , & most likely being throwed out of the temple .

 

[Mak33]

I promised some of the newcomers we would start a thread about being 'Born Again'. This is it

I will begin the discussion with a question...Why do you think Nicodemus came at night?

I think as a religious leader, Nicodemus was scared to be seen associating with Jesus, seeking his counsel, given his stature as a pharisee and ruler of the Jews,

 

[Chris1975]

(referring to v3 and v5)...

Yes, 'born again' shows that being born the first time is not enough. If we do not experience more from the Lord, then we cannot enter His Kingdom. People differ on what exactly 'born of water' is (I think it is coming forth from your mother's water), but the main point is that this is not enough to enter the Kingdom of God. Being born the second time is something we must choose to enter into. Can anyone tell us why? (Hint: the answer is in v.19).

John 4
9 Then the woman of Samaria said to Him, “How is it that You, being a Jew, ask a drink from me, a Samaritan woman?” For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.
10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”
11 The woman said to Him, “Sir, You have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. Where then do You get that living water? 12 Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank from it himself, as well as his sons and his livestock?”
13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

 

[mailmandan]

I will begin the discussion with a question...Why do you think Nicodemus came at night?

Nicodemus was a ruler of the Jews and I believe that most likely he was afraid to be seen with Jesus because of fear of the Jews and the repercussions that could have resulted. In John 19:38-39, we find Nicodemus assisting Joseph of Arimathea in a proper burial of Jesus. Joseph of Arimathea is described here as a disciple of Jesus, but secretly, because he feared the Jews.

(referring to v3 and v5)...

Yes, 'born again' shows that being born the first time is not enough. If we do not experience more from the Lord, then we cannot enter His Kingdom. People differ on what exactly 'born of water' is (I think it is coming forth from your mother's water), but the main point is that this is not enough to enter the Kingdom of God. Being born the second time is something we must choose to enter into. Can anyone tell us why? (Hint: the answer is in v.19).

In regards to the word "water" in John 3:5, there are those who would argue that the natural sense of the passage parallels "water" with being born out of a mother’s womb (verse 4) and with "flesh" (verse 6). Simply stated in that case, Jesus would have told Nicodemus that in order to see the kingdom of God two births are necessary. The first is a physical, literal, "flesh" birth (which is accompanied by amniotic water) and the second is Spirit.

There are also those who would argue that Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14; 7:37-39 and in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing/washing of regeneration. (Titus 3:5)

Yet there are still others who would argue that "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the Word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, Divine life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4). The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the Word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23), but the Holy Spirit is the Agent who accomplishes the miracle of regeneration.

A fourth interpretation (which I strongly disagree with) is "water" refers to water baptism and to be more specific, baptismal regeneration, which is taught in Roman Catholicism. Now to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

 

[Grandpa]

Nicodemus was a ruler of the Jews and I believe that most likely he was afraid to be seen with Jesus because of fear of the Jews and the repercussions that could have resulted. In John 19:38-39, we find Nicodemus assisting Joseph of Arimathea in a proper burial of Jesus. Joseph of Arimathea is described here as a disciple of Jesus, but secretly, because he feared the Jews.

In regards to the word "water" in John 3:5, there are those who would argue that the natural sense of the passage parallels "water" with being born out of a mother’s womb (verse 4) and with "flesh" (verse 6). Simply stated in that case, Jesus would have told Nicodemus that in order to see the kingdom of God two births are necessary. The first is a physical, literal, "flesh" birth (which is accompanied by amniotic water) and the second is Spirit.

There are also those who would argue that Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14; 7:37-39 and in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing/washing of regeneration. (Titus 3:5)

Yet there are still others who would argue that "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the Word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, Divine life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4). The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the Word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23), but the Holy Spirit is the Agent who accomplishes the miracle of regeneration.

A fourth interpretation (which I strongly disagree with) is "water" refers to water baptism and to be more specific, baptismal regeneration, which is taught in Roman Catholicism. Now to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

I don't mean to be contrary and I agree that baptism in itself does not save but it DOES seem like water baptism is a pretty big deal in the New Testament.

I don't think we can discount the possibility of being born of water DOES refer to water baptism.

But I DO agree with you just because the bible states water it is not necessarily referring to baptism.


I think if we look at water baptism the way John was using it, as a source of repentance, or trying to be right before God, instead of some magic ritual that will impart Righteousness to someone it would be easier to accept and understand.

The way I have looked at water baptism is a public declaration for Christ. Sort of like saying I am making a proclamation for Christ. I believe and I want everyone (my peers?) to know that. I state this publicly in hopes of the Lord Jesus stating it privately before the Father.

 

[oyster67]

(referring to v3 and v5)...

Yes, 'born again' shows that being born the first time is not enough. If we do not experience more from the Lord, then we cannot enter His Kingdom. People differ on what exactly 'born of water' is (I think it is coming forth from your mother's water), but the main point is that this is not enough to enter the Kingdom of God. Being born the second time is something we must choose to enter into. Can anyone tell us why? (Hint: the answer is in v.19).

I mentioned that v. 19 tells us why we need to be born again. It says "...their deeds were evil." As it turn out, that shoe fits all of us. We cannot walk into Heaven wearing those shoes. Since the day Adam sinned in the Garden, we have all been born with selfish natures inside. Something needs to be done. We need to be born again.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

In regards to the word "water" in John 3:5, there are those who would argue that the natural sense of the passage parallels "water" with being born out of a mother’s womb (verse 4) and with "flesh" (verse 6). Simply stated in that case, Jesus would have told Nicodemus that in order to see the kingdom of God two births are necessary. The first is a physical, literal, "flesh" birth (which is accompanied by amniotic water) and the second is Spirit.

I do not see how Nicodemus could possibly be referring to the ordinance of baptism as a symbol of our death and then new life in Jesus. How could he have done so when Jesus was sitting in front of him and had not yet died or hinted to Nicodemus anything on record in scripture, that would indicate any other possible understanding than the water associated with natural birth.

we can create metaphors in hindsight and that is ok, but certainly Nicodemus was not doing so

in order for him to have done so, he would have needed to be a prophet...which he most certainly was not

 

[oyster67]

I don't mean to be contrary and I agree that baptism in itself does not save but it DOES seem like water baptism is a pretty big deal in the New Testament.

I don't think we can discount the possibility of being born of water DOES refer to water baptism.

But I DO agree with you just because the bible states water it is not necessarily referring to baptism.


I think if we look at water baptism the way John was using it, as a source of repentance, or trying to be right before God, instead of some magic ritual that will impart Righteousness to someone it would be easier to accept and understand.

The way I have looked at water baptism is a public declaration for Christ. Sort of like saying I am making a proclamation for Christ. I believe and I want everyone (my peers?) to know that. I state this publicly in hopes of the Lord Jesus stating it privately before the Father.

Confessing Jesus with our mouth and not being ashamed of Jesus are also important, but first we need to be born again. These come after the second birth, not before.

V.3 Shows us that there is no other way to enter The Kingdom except by being born again.

 

[oyster67]

3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

V. 6 Might be revealing the difference between the first(flesh?) and second birth. At any rate, we see that the 2nd birth is a spiritual thing. It is not a physical work, but a heartfelt decision that requires faith, not work.

 

[Judges1318]

3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

V. 6 Might be revealing the difference between the first(flesh?) and second birth.

Yes, it is the difference between the natural birth and the second spiritual birth. The first birth is the son born 'according to the flesh' through the old covenant of law:

Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman (the old covenant) and the other by the free woman (the New Covenant). 23His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise. - Galatians 4:22-23

'Born according to the flesh' meaning the son born as the result of human effort, as opposed to the son who is born as the result of the promise.

Born of water - born by the outward, fleshly effort of the law. Aka, repentance (epitomized in John's baptism in water).

Born of the Spirit - born by inward belief in the promise of God. Aka, faith in Christ.

BOTH births must occur for one to see and enter into the kingdom.

I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus. - Acts 20:21

 

[bud62]

I don't mean to be contrary and I agree that baptism in itself does not save but it DOES seem like water baptism is a pretty big deal in the New Testament.

I don't think we can discount the possibility of being born of water DOES refer to water baptism.

But I DO agree with you just because the bible states water it is not necessarily referring to baptism.


I think if we look at water baptism the way John was using it, as a source of repentance, or trying to be right before God, instead of some magic ritual that will impart Righteousness to someone it would be easier to accept and understand.

The way I have looked at water baptism is a public declaration for Christ. Sort of like saying I am making a proclamation for Christ. I believe and I want everyone (my peers?) to know that. I state this publicly in hopes of the Lord Jesus stating it privately before the Father.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them , Repent, &be baptized every one of you in the name of JESUS CHRIST for the remission of sins, &ye shall receive the gift of the HOLY GHOST . AND HE tells us , that we are none of HIS , with out HIS SPIRIT , Witch is the HOLY GHOST .
HOW many did he tell to get baptized , EVERY ONE OF YOU , I THINK THIS INCLUDES ME & you ALL & all the rest. GOD bless as HE sees fit

 

[Judges1318]

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them , Repent, &be baptized every one of you in the name of JESUS CHRIST for the remission of sins, &ye shall receive the gift of the HOLY GHOST . AND HE tells us , that we are none of HIS , with out HIS SPIRIT , Witch is the HOLY GHOST .
HOW many did he tell to get baptized , EVERY ONE OF YOU , I THINK THIS INCLUDES ME & you ALL & all the rest. GOD bless as HE sees fit

I'm all for water baptism and think that every believer should be water baptized as fast as humanly possible after trusting in Christ. Ideally, while they are confessing their trust in Christ. But the focus in this discussion should not be on the act of water baptism itself but rather the repentance that water baptism represents.

Repentance alone births a natural person into the kingdom of God. Faith in Christ births a spiritual person into the kingdom of God.

 

[Judges1318]

I do not see how Nicodemus could possibly be referring to the ordinance of baptism as a symbol of our death and then new life in Jesus. How could he have done so when Jesus was sitting in front of him and had not yet died or hinted to Nicodemus anything on record in scripture, that would indicate any other possible understanding than the water associated with natural birth.

Put yourself in Nicodemus' sandals. Up to that time John's baptism in water was being proclaimed. That water birthed a person into the kingdom in the natural way--the way of outward repentance, not inward regeneration.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Put yourself in Nicodemus' sandals. Up to that time John's baptism in water was being proclaimed. That water birthed a person into the kingdom in the natural way--the way of outward repentance, not inward regeneration.

seems like you have put yourself in those sandals

we all know about the baptism of Jesus' cousin, but he said he was not worthy to undo the sandals of Jesus

you speak of the kingdom, but Jesus preached the kingdom of God and John preached the kingdom from a Jewish perspective

you are conflating the scriptures and I am not interested in further discussion with you but you can state whatever you want

 

[Judges1318]

you speak of the kingdom, but Jesus preached the kingdom of God and John preached the kingdom from a Jewish perspective

Explain the difference.