Why was the Rich man in Hades?
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I believe that those who loved God were the ones truly faithful (love leads to obedience). David loved God and he drew near to the Lord, sought the Lord's will always, when he messed up he was quick to repent, he took the Lord chastening, etc.
I believe Saul is an anti-type in terms of faith. As Saul grew in stature, it was revealed that he didn't love God, obedience fell by the wayside, followed his own will instead of that of the Lord, was never forthcoming when he messed up, and refused God's chastening.
I believe the OT saints who overcame were those who loved God, and loved His word. They lived repentantly.
I believe Saul is an anti-type in terms of faith. As Saul grew in stature, it was revealed that he didn't love God, obedience fell by the wayside, followed his own will instead of that of the Lord, was never forthcoming when he messed up, and refused God's chastening.
I believe the OT saints who overcame were those who loved God, and loved His word. They lived repentantly.
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The OT saints were saved the same way NT saints and all those who belong to Christ, by faith.
Hebrews 11 lists the OT saints. "By Faith" is used 24 times in the chapter.
As far as the rich man and Lazarus. In context, our Lord was giving this parable for the sake of the Pharisees and I think (as terrifying as it is) answers some questions about Hell.
Constant torment, still has an active conscience, etc.
(v22-23)
The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
rich man (a Pharisee): Notice his "brothers", the Pharisee leaders:
Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Blames God he is there.
(v30) No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.
How MANY times did Jesus perform miracles, and they "still" would not believe because they "could not" believe (John 12:37-43) Plus they loved the approval of men.
(v31) If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’ ”
Also, it's a sober warning that miracles themselves will not evangelize the lost. They need the word of God:
(again, v31)
If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’ ”
"Moses and the prophets" - The Law; their Scripture at the time. No full canon yet.
Hebrews 11 lists the OT saints. "By Faith" is used 24 times in the chapter.
As far as the rich man and Lazarus. In context, our Lord was giving this parable for the sake of the Pharisees and I think (as terrifying as it is) answers some questions about Hell.
Constant torment, still has an active conscience, etc.
(v22-23)
The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
rich man (a Pharisee): Notice his "brothers", the Pharisee leaders:
Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Blames God he is there.
(v30) No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.
How MANY times did Jesus perform miracles, and they "still" would not believe because they "could not" believe (John 12:37-43) Plus they loved the approval of men.
(v31) If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’ ”
Also, it's a sober warning that miracles themselves will not evangelize the lost. They need the word of God:
(again, v31)
If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’ ”
"Moses and the prophets" - The Law; their Scripture at the time. No full canon yet.
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I believe Saul loved his idea of God. The false teachings of the day had seized his mind. We see this today from other religions. Religion by definition is a worldview centered in faith with religious ( continual practices) that are strictly held to.
So I truly believe Saul probably loved his image of God as to have such zeal and willingness to protect that image by destroying the Christians who threatened his God by in his eyes a false teaching.
Atheist worship themselves or a certain idol. They have faith that atheism is true and probably very much love themselves or whatever idol they worship, usually sex.
So love can be genuine but the question becomes is the belief,person,being, or object worth your love and faith. After all some beliefs out of faith and love for their God calls themselves to blow themselves up as in jihad.
With enough evidence and revelation, Paul on the road to Damascus evidently saw Jesus and was given a revelation that caused him to see his love was faithfully following a false belief.
So I truly believe Saul probably loved his image of God as to have such zeal and willingness to protect that image by destroying the Christians who threatened his God by in his eyes a false teaching.
Atheist worship themselves or a certain idol. They have faith that atheism is true and probably very much love themselves or whatever idol they worship, usually sex.
So love can be genuine but the question becomes is the belief,person,being, or object worth your love and faith. After all some beliefs out of faith and love for their God calls themselves to blow themselves up as in jihad.
With enough evidence and revelation, Paul on the road to Damascus evidently saw Jesus and was given a revelation that caused him to see his love was faithfully following a false belief.
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There was a holding place for people .. one for saved and one for unsaved..
The saved person could not go to the unsaved persons place and vice versa.
Hades doesn't always mean eternal hell.. it can also mean 'abode of the dead'
The saved person would have been in Abraham's bosom... waiting to be taken up. The unsaved.. in torments.. separated from the saved person by a great impassable gulf.
The saved person could not go to the unsaved persons place and vice versa.
Hades doesn't always mean eternal hell.. it can also mean 'abode of the dead'
The saved person would have been in Abraham's bosom... waiting to be taken up. The unsaved.. in torments.. separated from the saved person by a great impassable gulf.
Yes, many obeyed the law by being blameless, not sinless. Remember, part of the law was the sacrificial system. Here's an example:
Luke 1
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
Righteousness could be attained under the law, but it was self righteousness by being blameless.
Luke 1
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
Righteousness could be attained under the law, but it was self righteousness by being blameless.
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P
Very good question brother.
Although the scripture does not show the reason the out come does.
Many in the day believed that the quality of life was a reflection of the soul. In others words if you were rich and in good health God favored you. Being poor was looked upon as hidden sin or a sinful life and God has cursed you. A good example is when the apostles asked about the blind man. What sin had he or his parents committed that brought on the blindness at birth.
There was also those that believed that just by being a decendant of Abraham was a get out of jail free card.
This story does a lot of damage to the prosperity gospel which in it self is nothing new.
Although the scripture does not show the reason the out come does.
Many in the day believed that the quality of life was a reflection of the soul. In others words if you were rich and in good health God favored you. Being poor was looked upon as hidden sin or a sinful life and God has cursed you. A good example is when the apostles asked about the blind man. What sin had he or his parents committed that brought on the blindness at birth.
There was also those that believed that just by being a decendant of Abraham was a get out of jail free card.
This story does a lot of damage to the prosperity gospel which in it self is nothing new.
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How is one saved today? By trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus for our sins? Is that what the OT saints believed? Nope. Hebrews 11 shows that their faith in what God had told them at that time was justified by their works. How do we know Noah had faith? Noah built the ark. His obedience justified his faith. Noah had no clue about the cross. None of them did. It was hid from them.
Before Noah built that Ark, the Bible says But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
Salvation has always been by grace through faith. Long before Abraham prepared to sacrifice Isaac, he was saved by grace through faith. His faith was imputed to him for righteousness.
We cannot say that the OT saints had no clue about the cross. When they offered whole burnt offerings to God, and shed the blood of clean innocent animals, they were recognizing the need for substitutionary atonement.
Salvation has always been by grace through faith. Long before Abraham prepared to sacrifice Isaac, he was saved by grace through faith. His faith was imputed to him for righteousness.
We cannot say that the OT saints had no clue about the cross. When they offered whole burnt offerings to God, and shed the blood of clean innocent animals, they were recognizing the need for substitutionary atonement.
The offerings of animals were shadows of Christ, but they could not see that at the time. We can see it now because we have the rest of the story.
13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
Noah did not put his faith and trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. No one did before the cross. Not even His disciples understood the cross. It was hid from them and everybody else until after it happened.
Noah found grace because his generations had not been corrupted by the sons of God.
Noah found grace because his generations had not been corrupted by the sons of God.
Christ uses stories because He was well aware of their teaching value. As mentioned the rich man wasn’t named, probably not because his name was blotted out. It was more likely that Christ’ audience was poor and didn’t like the rich, so it describes a class of people who seem to be enjoying the good life while they themselves suffer. The beggar, Lazarus is named because now he has an identity, and more relatable. What are the odds you would have this sore infested, dog licked, beggar outside his house? Hardly realistic, but the imagery is crisp. The point is that your current state will not exist in the afterlife. It was a clear contrast of the last being first, and the first being last. He took the richest and the poorest then swapped predicaments in eternity. It gave hope for those in dire need that following the Master is more beneficial in the long than gaining material wealth. Humans are mostly empathetic creatures who relate to characters in stories. They more effectively teach moral lessons, and easier to remember. They effectively download into our conscience above a list of rules. I strongly believe it didn’t actually happen, but in their imaginations it did, so it was effective.
Faith is more than a belief, it is a conviction. Believing that vegetables help heal the body and give it longevity doesn’t cause health. Putting “faith” in them, eating them does. Faith is not passive. Noah’s listening to God leading to the construction of the ark saved him, otherwise he would have drowned. It is not the sacrifice of animals that remitted sin, it is the faith that it does, then you make the sacrifice. It is active. Many will suffer because they don’t realize that saying you are a follower, is very different than being a follower.
Correct! But we are justified by the faith of Jesus Christ, all those who believe. It's Christ's faith that justifies a man. He's done all the work. Jesus was completely obedient unto the Father even unto the death of the cross.
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Without faith nothing they could of done or action would of been seen as righteous. Faith is the key. The walk is brought forth by faith. The Hebrews heroes of the faith contradict your narrative.
Hebrews 11 New International Version (NIV)
Faith in Action
11 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.
3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
4 By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead.
5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.”[a] For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.
8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.
9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
11 And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she[b] considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own.
15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
17 By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18 even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”[c] 19 Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death.
20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.
21 By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.
22 By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions concerning the burial of his bones.
23 By faith Moses’ parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict.
24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. 25 He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26 He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward.
27 By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the application of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.
29 By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.
30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the army had marched around them for seven days.
31 By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.[d]
32 And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies.
35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were put to death by stoning;[e] they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated—
38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground.
39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
Hebrews 11 New International Version (NIV)
Faith in Action
11 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.
3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
4 By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead.
5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.”[a] For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.
8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.
9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
11 And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she[b] considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own.
15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
17 By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18 even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”[c] 19 Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death.
20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.
21 By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.
22 By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions concerning the burial of his bones.
23 By faith Moses’ parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict.
24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. 25 He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26 He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward.
27 By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the application of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.
29 By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.
30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the army had marched around them for seven days.
31 By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.[d]
32 And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies.
35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were put to death by stoning;[e] they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated—
38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground.
39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
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Is that what your debating? Of course Jesus had not came yet. They put faith in what they currently had. A faith in God's words, actions, and promises of a coming Messiah that would die for the sins of the world. The thread of Jesus is from cover to cover regardless if saints do not fully understand. That involved faith.