Free Will compatible with Sovereignty

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7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#41
#41
Dave-L said:
The Law depends on free will. Choose to speed, get arrested. Break the Ten Commandments and die. But law cannot save. Never could. But the gospel is not law. You turn it into law when you think salvation is a job offer you must agree to. Grace saves those who cannot save themselves.
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a generous non-response to my actual post

not surprised
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#42
#42
Judges1318 said:
It's not really a matter of whether or not people have free will. It's a matter of whether or not what you will to do when subjected to various circumstances is determined ahead of time by God for you, or if what you will to do originates from an inherent quality, or potential within the person himself.
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oh good grief

you sound like a therapist in behavioral cognitive functions

in other words, baloney

Cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) is a short-term, goal-oriented psychotherapy treatment that takes a hands-on, practical approach to problem-solving. Its is to change patterns of thinking or behavior that are behind people's difficulties, and so change the way they feel.

who needs the Holy Spirit, eh? :sneaky:
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#43
#43
Judges1318 said:
@7seasrekeyed

If you're interested in discussing it, I actually prefer to use the analogy of the husbandman, but it takes a little more explanation, while the analogy of the rat in a carefully controlled maze does not. But both illustrate the truth well.

The task of the husbandman is to create all the right circumstances and provide all the right things for the soil to realize the potential that piece of ground contains. The ground can't realize it's own potential. It can't seed itself. It can't water itself. It has to be subjected to various outside influences by a husbandman in order for the ground to do what it is capable of doing, if it's capable of doing anything.

If I understand Calvinism, it teaches that God purposely creates some soil with no potential to sustain growth, and other soil with the potential to sustain growth, entirely at his own discretion, with zero consideration of what the soil itself wants. You probably know the soil I'm referring to is the soil of human hearts.

I think the more accurate understanding is each human soul that God has created has in itself it's own inherent potential to produce and sustain useful growth, or not produce and sustain useful growth. I believe that inherent potential belongs to the soil itself and is not assigned to the soil by God.

The job of the husbandman is to subject the soil to whatever it needs to be subjected to in order to realize it's inherent potential, or reveal it's lack of potential. And he does that according to his foreknowledge. For example, he's not going to plant lots of seed in a plot of soil (remember, we're talking about human hearts here) that he knows ahead of time has no potential in and of itself to bring that seed to fruition. Meanwhile, he may abundantly seed and water a plot of soil that he knows has lots of potential to bring what's planted in it to fruition.
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not really

I prefer to discuss the actual gospel

which so far, has not appeared in this thread

I wonder if it was behavioral manipulation or desperation when the thief called out on the cross :unsure:
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#45
#45
Judges1318 said:
26From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. - Acts 17:26-27
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that's a maze somehow?

I've seen better in a cornfield

God does not create mazes...He says ask of me

He does not direct us like a bunch of food oriented rats

truly I cannot wrap my head around how people pick a verse and somehow think it fits their own theories
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#46
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
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#46
7seasrekeyed said:
a generous non-response to my actual post

not surprised
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“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (KJV 1900)

Why not?
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#47
Jan 13, 2016
17,111
3,687
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#47
Dave-L said:
“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (KJV 1900)

Why not?
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How can I sin when the law that was against me was nailed to the cross?
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#49
Jan 13, 2016
17,111
3,687
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#49
Dave-L said:
David did. The Corinthians were getting drunk at communion.....
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As a member of the body of Christ, I can’t sin in God’s eyes. I have the righteousness of Christ imputed to me. Do I sin in regards to the here and now in the eyes of others? Absolutely!

I will never stand accountable for my sin for I will be present with the Lord based upon the righteous merits of Jesus Christ. In that, I do rejoice.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#50
Jan 13, 2016
17,111
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#50
Dave-L said:
David did. The Corinthians were getting drunk at communion.....
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And yet Paul says of this Corinth, “And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.”
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#51
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
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#51
John146 said:
And yet Paul says of this Corinth, “And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.”
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Believers always overcome.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#52
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
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#52
Nehemiah6 said:
Twisting the Word of God to suit your ideas is a dangerous game. God says what He means and means what He says.

If all could not repent, then all would not be commanded to repent. If all could not be saved, salvation would not be offered to all.
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Part of rightly dividing the scriptures consists of not assuming that words such as; All, world, salvation, death, life, etc. have different applications. All can mean "all that is in this room", "all of the believers" "all of the Gentiles", etc. All mankind is not commanded to repent of breaking a spiritual law. The natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, will not, and even, cannot repent of breaking a spiritual law that he can not discern, and thinks that it is foolishness. The heart of stone of the natural man cannot be pricked to feel guilty of breaking a spiritual law, that he does not understand. The spiritual man has had his heart of stone changed to a heart of flesh that can be pricked to feel guilty of breaking a spiritual law, Eze 36:26-27, and therefore is commanded to repent. You are the one that is "twisting the word of God".
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#53
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
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#53
John146 said:
As a member of the body of Christ, I can’t sin in God’s eyes. I have the righteousness of Christ imputed to me. Do I sin in regards to the here and now in the eyes of others? Absolutely!

I will never stand accountable for my sin for I will be present with the Lord based upon the righteous merits of Jesus Christ. In that, I do rejoice.
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How is this different from hyper grace?
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#58
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
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#58
Judges1318 said:
God's sovereignty in salvation is not in him determining who will be created with the potential to respond to the gospel and who will not. That quality lies within the person themselves. God's sovereignty in salvation lies in how, when, and where, and if salvation is offered to mankind. Man can't save himself, but can only be saved if God makes salvation available to a person, and if the person even has the potential in and of themselves to receive salvation.
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The Greek meaning of "salvation" is "a deliverance". God offers a deliverance, here in time, to his born again children if they will follow his commandments, but God does not offer eternal deliverance to mankind. Even if He did, the natural man cannot accept the things of the Spirit, because they are foolishness to him, 1 Cor 2:14. Eph 2 states that the natural man is dead (spiritually) and cannot accept a spiritual offer, until God regenerates him, by putting the Holy Spirit within him. The Holy Spirit only dwells within a person after he is regenerated to the new spiritual life.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#59
Jan 13, 2016
17,111
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#59
Dave-L said:
How so?
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1 Corinthians 15
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#60
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
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#60
John146 said:
1 Corinthians 15
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
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“For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.” 1 Corinthians 1:18 (KJV 1900)
 
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