Apostasy 101
- Thread starter Chris1975
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No.
You are claiming that this adulterer does not lose his salvation because of his deeds (adultery). In essence you are saying he was saved before committing adultery.
So when the scripture says 'being handed over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.' Does it mean he maintains the salvation that he has 'til the day of the Lord or his spirit shall be saved on the day of the Lord?
It's the blood of the covenant that sanctifies believers and it also justifies believers (Romans 5:9) and although apostate Hebrews may have been outwardly "set apart" by the blood of the covenant, since they have professed faith in Jesus and were identified as active participants in the Hebrew Christian community of believers, yet they eventually renounced their identification with other believers by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received (Hebrews 10:26) and trampling under foot the work and the person of Christ himself, which proves their faith to be spurious because they drew back to perdition and did not believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:39)
Heb 10:29 How much more severely do you think one deserves to be punished who has trampled on the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
The word is not just sanctified but sanctified by the blood of the covenant.
So according to you, a person can be sanctified by the blood of the covenant and still not be saved? What is the function of the blood of the covenant according to OSAS?
Hebrews 10:10 - By this will WE have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Hebrews 10:14 - For by one offering He has perfected for all time THOSE who are sanctified.
Does that permanent or temporary? It's permanent for genuine believers, but not for those with spurious faith who draw back to perdition and do not believe to the saving of the soul.
You still do not understand the 3 tenses of salvation, so you will remain confused about this. Believers "have been" saved (past tense, with ongoing present results) through faith (Ephesians 2:8) and in another sense, believers will be saved (future tense) "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) which does not mean that believers have not yet been saved through faith until they have reached the end of their faith. So which sins automatically cause us to lose our salvation? Must we remain sinless 100% of the time in order to maintain our salvation? How is that working out for you?
I will not debate the 'once and for all' item because it clearly doesn't mean what you insinuate, it is explained in that same chapter.
But you are saying Christ started something in them that He did and could not finish. The blood of Christ set them apart outwardly (whatever that means)- means Christ started something in them and they departed from it - means Christ could not finish what He started.
Fail
E
EleventhHour
Guest
Yes ... the expression "beating a dead horse" does come to mind though.
but , you do make verses stand on their own when you ignore context, word definitions, and chronological order, which you do.
one of your go to spots is Romans 6. well, in context, Romans 1, Paul explains how the Gospel is all about faith. then He goes on to explain hoe those who do not have faith consistently act.
so, then, Romans from that point forward compares and contrasts faith based behavior and non faith based behavior.
so, the first thing Paul talked about, at the fist part of the letter , is salvation by faith. not the behavior first
so, THAT is how one interprets Scripture .
WE have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all in Hebrew 10:10 means exactly what it says and so does ..He has perfected for all time THOSE who are sanctified in Hebrews 10:14. You can try to explain this away in vain all you want by saying that once for all/for all time only applies to the offering of Christ itself or that once for all/for all time doesn't really mean what it says.
They drew back to perdition and did not believe to the saving of the soul (vs. 39) so Christ did not start the good work in them because they were never saved. Christ always finishes what He starts. Philippians 1:6 - being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ. If it doesn't get finished by Christ, then it never got started with Christ.
I know about the 3 tenses of salvation, it was wrong the first time you tried explaining it and it will still be wrong in the future yet you are now trying to hide some details from it.
According to you, the 3 tenses of salvation involve:
1. Justification (Justified)
2. Sanctification (being sanctified)
3. Glorification (Our bodies being glorified in the future)
Yet 1 Cor 5 clearly says the body of this adulterer is being destroyed so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord Future).
Don't you see your 3rd tense about bodies being glorified fails here? Paul says "so that his spirit may be saved.."
Its a safety zone that you pull back to. Throw up context, word definition, chronological order, hermeneutics - instead of dealing with the actual scripture at hand. As if by you throwing all of this up asserts I haven't already considered that. Your mere assertion intends to put burden of proof on me, instead of dealing with the fact at hand. Whereas I have given sufficient context and line by line commentary in the above to make all of these things clear.
No, you don't get off that easy. Not buying it.
And if your highlighted in red sections above are meant to give me the standard by which you wish to see context, then I am sorry to say your example falls very, very short on this.
You remain confused. The man who committed adultery is being disciplined. When will "in the day of the Lord Jesus" take place?I know about the 3 tenses of salvation, it was wrong the first time you tried explaining it and it will still be wrong in the future yet you are now trying to hide some details from it.
According to you, the 3 tenses of salvation involve:
1. Justification (Justified)
2. Sanctification (being sanctified)
3. Glorification (Our bodies being glorified in the future)
Yet 1 Cor 5 clearly says the body of this adulterer is being destroyed so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
Don't you see your 3rd tense about bodies being glorified fails here? Paul says "so that his spirit may be saved.."
Because the chapter itself has explained what perfected for all time means.
There's no such thing as being partially or outwardly set apart. There's no reason for the blood of Christ that washes away the sins of the world to outwardly set apart a person, it either saves or it doesn't, no transitions required and no middle ground.
Drawing back from sanctification means exactly that.
- the 1 Corinthians Brother is handed over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh (disease or wasting away)
- in order to produce REPENTANCE (godly sorrow), so that...
- his spirit will be saved in the day of the Lord.
And this repentance came as this brother did in fact REPENT as per 2 Corinthians. And this brother was turned from his evil way.
If this brother DID NOT repent, and the destruction of the flesh did not have its desired effect, he would have been lost totally (no salvation).
You just DON'T GET IT and those who drew back to perdition and do not believe to the saving of the soul (vs. 39) were never sanctified "set apart" as genuine believers (those who believed to the saving of the soul) but were "set apart" as professing believers/active participants in the Hebrew Christian community of genuine believers. Feel free to read post #19 - https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/that-hebrews-10v26-thread.189675/
so, in other words, you do not want to talk about Romans 1.
yep, hiding is a good way to describe what you do. only point out verses that you can bend to support your backdoor sinless perfectionism , hide from the rest.
Well, we know one thing.
You can't live in sin and expect to be saved when Jesus comes back.
Without turning that guy over to satan he won't be saved when Jesus comes back.
Future.
Heb 9: 27Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
perfectly ties to your 3rd tense notion of bodies being glorified yet this adulterers body is destroyed so that his spirit is saved on the day of the Lord.
This makes the whole letter to the Hebrews a waste of time and space.
No need to warn people in such an impassioned and lengthy way to not fall away from Christ who can't fall away from Christ.