Paper Money and Fiat Currency is the Mark of the Beast

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posthuman said:
It's funny how you say you've never heard of this before, but you went directly to this inactive, buried thread as soon as you joined the forum, and quickly decided Christians using currency are engaging in sin.

Can i ask how that came to pass?
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I did a google search on this topic after seeing it on another forum just days ago and realized that it was posted here as well. I was looking for more information on this.

I was not convicted by what fiat currency could represent, but by how Christians are NOT supposed to engage in evil or support evil practices. This topic simply served as a reminder of that godly principle.
 
Enxu said:
I have yet to hear your definition of fiat system. The reason poor countries became poor is because they printed too much money and generated fictitious wealth, the excess supply of money bankrupted their currency on the forex market and impoverished those who hold their currency. Printing more money and generating fictitious wealth IS the reason for poverty and worthless currencies.
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Simply stated currency not backed by a commodity.

Then you admit it is the government and poor management that is the problem and not the currency.

It is completely silly to think that a country like the USA, or any other nation that has exports and imports could return to a commodity backed currency.
 
posthuman said:
It's funny how you say you've never heard of this before, but you went directly to this inactive, buried thread as soon as you joined the forum, and quickly decided Christians using currency are engaging in sin.

Can i ask how that came to pass?
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Yup, that is what I stated too.
 
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EleventhHour said:
Simply stated currency not backed by a commodity.

Then you admit it is the government and poor management that is the problem and not the currency.

It is completely silly to think that a country like the USA, or any other nation that has exports and imports could return to a commodity backed currency.
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I never said the currency is the issue, I said the fiat system and how it runs the currency is the issue.

It is even more silly to think that just because the world is not going to go back to commodity backed currency it somehow makes the use of fiat system an acceptable thing. Let God be the ultimate judge.
 
Enxu said:
I never said the currency is the issue, I said the fiat system and how it runs the currency is the issue.

It is even more silly to think that just because the world is not going to go back to commodity backed currency it somehow makes the use of fiat system an acceptable thing. Let God be the ultimate judge.
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Why exactly is currency backed by a commodity, in our present day world, a better option from a financial and a macroeconomic point of view.. can you explain that to me.

Do you follow all the laws of the Torah?
 
um lets create our own currency.
each page of the Bible is like a note of paper money.
Lets say Prophets and Letters are worth the most and Proverbs can be like the lesser value. (like the small change)

whoever has the most Bible pages is the richest person in the world.
 
Enxu said:
I NEVER asked you to believe that fiat currency is the mark of the beast, I am telling you that the fiat system is evil.

You still don't know what is the difference between assigning values to gold and measuring weights of gold, do you? The first one is fiat economy and is based on lies, the second one is an honest use of gold because weights don't change like assigned values.
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There are problems with a fiat currency system-- the risk of deflation when the system unravels is one of them. Our current currency system just goes back to the 70's. That's the last major revision of the global system which has been evolving since earlier in the 20th century.

But there is no command not to use fiat currency, and there is no warning against buying or selling with unstable currency. James says of gold and silver, 'Your gold and silver is cankered....' The Bible does not praise the permanence and incorruptibility of gold or silver.

Your trying to blame Christians who buy food and clothing as if they are guilty of sin even if they had nothing to do with creating the monetary system. I read a post on another forum where a clergywoman said that Christians who bought from retailers who bought products manufactured overseas in factories that did not pay a 'livable wage' were sinning. I can't find this kind of down-stream blame game in scripture. It also lays an accusation against the poor who are trying to earn a living and find cheap prices to survive.

Is it a sin to trade one crop for another if the prices go up and down? The price of wheat and barley went up and down. We can see this in scripture when Samaria was under siege. Is it evil or unlawful, therefore, to trade wheat for barley, since neither of them are gold?
 
EleventhHour said:
Why exactly is currency backed by a commodity, in our present day world, a better option from a financial and a macroeconomic point of view.. can you explain that to me.

Do you follow all the laws of the Torah?
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Backing up currencies with a basket of commodities on some kind of index seems to make more sense, IMO.
 
EleventhHour said:
Which commodities would work do you think?
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Food, minerals, precious metals, industrial metals, etc.

Currency could be tied to GDP somehow, but if they break it into sectors, a system would have to be set up so we didn't go down the path of state-planned economies. I'm not sure how to capture value from services and tech innovations. As innovation occurs, what currency is tied to would have to change rapidly. Maybe some kind of index that changes based on the market could work.
 
I am truely amazed that 28 pages have been used to discuss such a non-issue. Legalism at its finest!
 
The Roman legal and political system had a lot of evil in it. So did their monetary system, syphoning off temple taxes, I've read. Their government conquered and dominated other peoples. Pilate mixed the blood of certain Galileans with their sacrifices.

So when Jesus was asked if it was lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, should have forbidden it? Should he have said it was a sin to participate in an evil political and economic system? No. He asked for a coin, asked whose name and image was on it, and said render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's and unto God the things that are God's. I live in a country that prints on at least some of its money that this is legal tender for all debts public and private. that's the government's decision. If Jesus did not condemn those who participated in the political system of their day, why would posters on this forum condemn those who use money in a much less pagan system. Our money says, "In God we trust on it."
 
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presidente said:
The Roman legal and political system had a lot of evil in it. So did their monetary system, syphoning off temple taxes, I've read. Their government conquered and dominated other peoples. Pilate mixed the blood of certain Galileans with their sacrifices.

So when Jesus was asked if it was lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, should have forbidden it? Should he have said it was a sin to participate in an evil political and economic system? No. He asked for a coin, asked whose name and image was on it, and said render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's and unto God the things that are God's. I live in a country that prints on at least some of its money that this is legal tender for all debts public and private. that's the government's decision. If Jesus did not condemn those who participated in the political system of their day, why would posters on this forum condemn those who use money in a much less pagan system. Our money says, "In God we trust on it."
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Where did I condemn anyone? You people should be asking God about whether He is ok with you using the fiat system, not defend your use in front of me. What if you’re wrong?
 
I'm curious where all the gold that was in fort Knox went to when Nixon changed us over to fiat money,did they split it or just forget to tell us where it all went that they had...
 
EleventhHour said:
Why exactly is currency backed by a commodity, in our present day world, a better option from a financial and a macroeconomic point of view.. can you explain that to me.

Do you follow all the laws of the Torah?
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I strive to follow all godly principles taught in the Torah.

It is meaningless to talk about whether something is better. I have no interest in the financial and economic systems in this world other than exposing its evil.

presidente said:
The Roman legal and political system had a lot of evil in it. So did their monetary system, syphoning off temple taxes, I've read. Their government conquered and dominated other peoples. Pilate mixed the blood of certain Galileans with their sacrifices.

So when Jesus was asked if it was lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, should have forbidden it? Should he have said it was a sin to participate in an evil political and economic system? No. He asked for a coin, asked whose name and image was on it, and said render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's and unto God the things that are God's. I live in a country that prints on at least some of its money that this is legal tender for all debts public and private. that's the government's decision. If Jesus did not condemn those who participated in the political system of their day, why would posters on this forum condemn those who use money in a much less pagan system. Our money says, "In God we trust on it."
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For that matter paying taxes is being obedient to the authorities on issues that don’t contradict the Gospel, and is not participating in evil systems. Matthew was a tax collector, did he ever go back to that occupation? No, because even the religious Pharisees said that such an occupation is for sinners. Can Matthew return to tax collecting to support himself outside of his newfound faith, of course. Why didn’t he do so? Because doing so will mean participating in the evil system.
 
Enxu said:
I strive to follow all godly principles taught in the Torah.

It is meaningless to talk about currency backed by


For that matter paying taxes is being obedient to the authorities, not participating in evil systems. Matthew was a tax collector, did he ever go back to that occupation? No, because even the religious Pharisees said that such an occupation is for sinners. Can Matthew return to tax collecting, of course.
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Have you read Romans 6:13 where we are clearly told we are under grace and not under the law?
.
 
presidente said:
There are problems with a fiat currency system-- the risk of deflation when the system unravels is one of them. Our current currency system just goes back to the 70's. That's the last major revision of the global system which has been evolving since earlier in the 20th century.

But there is no command not to use fiat currency, and there is no warning against buying or selling with unstable currency. James says of gold and silver, 'Your gold and silver is cankered....' The Bible does not praise the permanence and incorruptibility of gold or silver.

Your trying to blame Christians who buy food and clothing as if they are guilty of sin even if they had nothing to do with creating the monetary system. I read a post on another forum where a clergywoman said that Christians who bought from retailers who bought products manufactured overseas in factories that did not pay a 'livable wage' were sinning. I can't find this kind of down-stream blame game in scripture. It also lays an accusation against the poor who are trying to earn a living and find cheap prices to survive.

Is it a sin to trade one crop for another if the prices go up and down? The price of wheat and barley went up and down. We can see this in scripture when Samaria was under siege. Is it evil or unlawful, therefore, to trade wheat for barley, since neither of them are gold?
Click to expand...

I’m not trying to blame anyone. Even the OP said it’s completely ok to use the fiat currency to exchange for food and necessities.

It is about keeping a clean conscience before God and not wounding the conscience of fellow Christians. Given your example about Christians buying from retailers that bought from factories that exploit labor, it is not a sin if they did not know about the situation. But what did Paul teach about conscience? He would not even eat meat in front of a brother if that causes the brother to stumble.

No, wheat and barley are actual commodities that can be measured as kilograms or whatever other measurement. Trading 1kg of wheat for 1kg of barley is solid and not based on arbitrary values.

Paying taxes is not a sin for that matter, but collecting taxes to support a evil system is.
 
EleventhHour said:
Have you read Romans 6:13 where we are clearly told we are under grace and not under the law?
.
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Of course, have you read also that Jesus said, if you love Me you will obey My commandments? Jesus never said we can stop obeying because grace is here.
 
Enxu said:
Of course, have you read also that Jesus said, if you love Me you will obey My commandments? Jesus never said we can stop obeying because grace is here.
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So are you keeping all 613 laws?
 
Enxu said:
I’m not trying to blame anyone. Even the OP said it’s completely ok to use the fiat currency to exchange for food and necessities.

It is about keeping a clean conscience before God and not wounding the conscience of fellow Christians. Given your example about Christians buying from retailers that bought from factories that exploit labor, it is not a sin if they did not know about the situation. But what did Paul teach about conscience? He would not even eat meat in front of a brother if that causes the brother to stumble.

No, wheat and barley are actual commodities that can be measured as kilograms or whatever other measurement. Trading 1kg of wheat for 1kg of barley is solid and not based on arbitrary values.

Paying taxes is not a sin for that matter, but collecting taxes to support a evil system is.
Click to expand...

He did ...I do not recall reading that?
 
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