Women will be saved through Childbearing, if

[Mii]

You could not be more wrong. Jesus is the Word of God and He is very much alive today. It is because He is alive that we have hope. We are told: "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away." Hebrew letters are symbols that have evolved over time. For example the letter B represents a tent or dwelling. Today people live in high rise apartments. We do not call this a "tent' but the symbol is still the same. C represents a camel. We do not use a camel for transportation we have jets, but the archetype is still there. D represents the door to the tent and who controls the door. In this case we are told that Jesus is the door. He is not God, He is the Son of God. It is Jesus, the Son of God that determines what enters in or leaves the tent. Like the Tabernacle in the wilderness there is a Holy of Holies. God requires a degree of Holiness and Sanctification. The Tabernacle evolved into a Temple in Jerusalem. If we go back to basis and if we go back to the Beginning then we can build on our understanding. For example: Look at the word beginning. If you study the letters this means that the Ben, the Son of God was given as a Grain offering so that Heaven and Earth could be reconciled. Over time our understanding evolves and we better understand what a grain offering is and How Jesus was offered for us. Moses talks about: " the early rain and the latter rain, that you may gather in your grain, your new wine, and your oil." (Deut11:14) We see the grain, the wine and the oil are all strong symbols in our Bible.

Umm bro, no offense but I agree with you completely that he is the Word. Did you not even read my post?


"The WORD is living and can open a believers eyes to the meaning of the text " that's what I typed.

Should I have clarified that he can and does, and been as specific as possible so that you can see precisely what I mean? We have to glean online...as we glean more we can understand a person's position and then a valid disagreement can be addressed scripturally. If there is some way I can respond in the future to you, or what, just let me know.


This is exactly what I posted about earlier in another thread. Somehow people can completely misunderstand disagree completely and not even double check and give someone the benefit of the doubt that perhaps, possibly they misunderstood.

this was not at all what I was expecting upon getting on the site. I'm starting to understand how and why some people have left CC.

It's not disagreement or not seeing eye to eye. "that" I expect. It's disagreement due to misunderstandings without clarification.



You then proceed to lay out what I already am in agreement with, and instead of finding encouragement in someone sharing what I feel my eyes/heart have been open to as I've matured and further gleaning from their own walk, it's an opportunity for discord and a struggle ensues to just write you off as careless and unthinking.

I take great care with ignoring people, because possibly I am being ignorant in my ignoring

but when the thought enters in, it is still a challenge and frankly I find there is room for improvement in it. We don't have a place to call people out, nor offer apologies other than threads where other users can see amends as have taken place easily but it is a little discouraging at present.


We should be able to spar and sharpen each other's iron, but not fight. Sword fighting doesn't sharpen metal it dulls it.

 

[Mii]

Oh, I realize there is the PM system, so facepalm on not having a place. If I could edit that out I would...

If you would care to engage the other post I quoted, perhaps this discussion may move along?

 

[garee]

You keep quoting that statement out of context, and twisting its meaning. out of whose context . your interptation. .

Three time Jesus purposely hid the spiritual understanding in a parable to help teach them to walk by faith after the unseen will of God.

All three time they failed the test. And in the end Jesus rebuked them and confirmed they knew not what manner of spirit they were of .Its what happens when a person literalizes the source of faith the signified language .

Jesus seen arms length away disappears and the alpha dog who the greatesteted according to what the eyes become the source (walking by sight)

Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men. But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.
Then there arose a reasoning among them, which of them should be greatest.Luke 9: 44-46

In another following parable Jesus again hid the unseen spiritual understanding that reveals the gospel . The apostles wanted Jesus to call down fire from heaven and destroy all the eyes see . . Murder the gentiles as in out of sight out of mind. The pagan foundation the their religion. .literalist that makes the signified understanding without effect. Again to teach them how to walk by faith the right manner of Spirit.

But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.Luke 9:55

Still teaching men how to walk by faith. That false manner of spirit does the same with the whole book of Revelation. . a parable of the things which must shortly come to pass. Not only sent or inspired but also signified it.

Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Apply that to the metaphor "thousand years" or "bottomless pit" or a " key" or "chain" or "headless souls" . What is the spiritual understand hid in that parable .If the key is not the gospel that binds and loosens according to the will of God? Where can they be found? Some say Peter is the key that the gates of hell could never prevail against ? What do you say? Parables are not a source of faith or they provide the right manner of spirit ?

 

[Whispered]

I know

wasnt' it you that posted about her already? but I actually read one of her books some suns ago

I did. I haven't read any of her books though.

 

[Whispered]

Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
1 Timothy 3:12 KJV

You're misrepresenting the true words in the KJV Bible. A bishop is not a deacon.
A Bishop is a presiding official or overseer. The word is equivalent in use to Elder. Bishops were teachers and preachers as well as overseers and were charged with guarding the church against doctrinal error. Deacons were subordinate to Bishops and handled the more mundane tasks of church administration. The Greek word for Deacon means “one who serves.” [source]

1 Timothy 3 King James Version
1This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

 

[reneweddaybyday]

There is no indication in Scripture that "a pastor is above a teacher but below apostles, prophets & evangelists".

Perhaps you do not belong to a church with apostolic authority. Those that do take this very serious. Perhaps also you are thinking of the elders that are worthy of "double honor" - "The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching." (1Timothy5:17)

Is the doctrine of a "church with apostolic authority" held in higher esteem than Scripture?

There is One Head over the church – the Lord Jesus Christ.

All believers are members of His body. No member of the body is "above" or "below" any other member of the body. Consider your own body … is your arm "above" or "below" your leg? Aren't both arm and leg needful in and of themselves. When walking somewhere, perhaps the leg is more needful than the arm. However, in holding something in your arms, perhaps the arm is more needful than the leg. When carrying something from one point to another, both arm and leg are needful/necessary … but the arm is not "above" (more necessary than) the leg.

It is the same with the members of the body of the Lord Jesus Christ.

All members are needful and necessary. And when all members of the body recognize/realize this fact and start functioning effectively, the body is built up and grows robust and is more effective at standing in unity against that which is contrary to Scripture.

Having said that, I do agree that we are to have respect one for another. We are to esteem others as better than ourselves (Phil 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves) and we are to love and honor each other (Rom 12:10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another).

 

[Dino246]

Apply that to the metaphor "thousand years" or "bottomless pit" or a " key" or "chain" or "headless souls" . What is the spiritual understand hid in that parable .

Here's the basic problem: you seem to think that parables and metaphors are the same thing. They aren't.

 

[JohnR7]

Is the doctrine of a "church with apostolic authority" held in higher esteem than Scripture?

How would you know sense you have no idea what we are talking about.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

How would you know sense you have no idea what we are talking about.

So, you make a statement [ "A pastor is above a teacher but below apostles, prophets & evangelists" - Post #280 ] and it has been pointed out there is no Scriptural support for your claim - Post #310.

Rrather than provide Scriptural support for your claim, you rely on " church with apostolic authority ".

When the truth of Scripture is again laid out for you, your response is to assert that others "have no idea what [ you ] are talking about".

Do you even care what God has to say about the body of Christ and how each member is to function under the Head (the Lord Jesus Christ)? The Lord Jesus Christ is the only One Who is above any other member in the body of Christ (Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church).

 

[TheIndianGirl]

Deborah is probably the highest-ranking woman in the Bible, in terms of having a career outside the home. She was comparable to a Supreme Court Justice of her day, arguably a higher position than a pastor at church. We also have Joan of Arc, although Catholic and not listed in the Bible, who was a single woman and military leader. There are other women leaders in the Bible (Priscilla, Phoebe, Elect Lady, and Chloe, Lydia, Nympha, and Mark's mother appear to have their own church houses in the NT). Jesus valued women so highly that the first witnesses of his resurrection were women (Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Susanna) and the first people to preach the "Good News" (to men). That Paul would say that women should be silent in church seems contrary to what Jesus would do, and so leads me to believe, as there are no contradictions in the Bible, that Paul was addressing one particular congregation (where the women were being noisy, etc.).

 

[garee]

Here's the basic problem: you seem to think that parables and metaphors are the same thing. They aren't.

Parables are basically metaphorical stories that use this figure of speech to make a point about a subject not addressed in the parable itself. They are designed to help us walk by faith the unseen understanding again as that not addressed in the parable itself.

Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

 

[garee]

You are not expressing your view you are disrespecting them and their view. In the Episcopal church for example when you join the church the bishop lays on hands and prays for you. The reason for that is Apostolic Succession. Not just the Catholics, Anglos, Episcopal, Lutheran & Methodist even church like LDS have their own version of Apostolic Succession.

The idea of Apostolic Succession is not a biblical principle. We are warned against it. It does disrespect to the word of God.

It is the method of operation of the antichrists . Apostle means "sent one" with no other meaning added. Why add other meanings?

 

[garee]

Right but, correct me if I'm wrong, it is a dead language. The WORD is living and can open a believers eyes to the meaning of the text (consider Phillip and the man on the chariot) but even if we tried to mentally understand a dead language...isn't there a considerable amount of debate that it can really even be done?

I like that you mentioned the tower of Babel, because somehow I responded and then reread...and was like ok, it still works lol, because even if they spoke a pure language (which I do not discount as it is highly probable) we couldn't understand it in our fleshly mind regardless.

At first I was responding just off the historical aspect of language being sundered with the tower and then it was brought to remembrance that it was the Lord that did it. So I was first inclined to respond in a certain way and then that was countered by additional "context" so interestingly I seem to have just illustrated the presented example, which is cool.



Usually I put a good bit more time into making that less obvious in text, but I appreciate the example.

What is the idea of a pure language . How would that apply to woman being silent or Philip and the man on the chariot as some sort of dead language?

 

[garee]

This has to do with doctrine not "spiritual matters". "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. " (Galations3:28)

Doctrines of God are spiritual matters .God is Spirit. The bible is a spiritual book written by the finger of His Spirit. We compare the spiritual to the spiritual unseen understanding. Or called faith to faith as it is written.

What I have observed is many do not take into account the drastic change that was made because of the time of reformation. Like it never occurred .

Woman as well as gentiles previously could not participate. A high wall separated them from the Jewish men as well as a wall separation the gentiles. (the pagan design of Kings) .

Now they were allowed to gather together and be part of the ceremonies as shadows that points ahead. Some woman in there zeal to use their gift of prophesying or declaring their new tongue the gospel became over bearing and the law of virtue found in Genesis 3 was lost.

In order to maintain order and focus of the new testament ceremonies as a representative glory of God not seen .These gifted woman were asked to share what the Spirit of Christ that worked in them at home.

The law of virtue represents the government of God . loving authority (like that of the father) working with the Son, willing submission. Together as one bringing the peace of God that surpasses all human understanding.

The period of time was being restored to the period of Judges when men and woman were both used to accomplish the will of God that worked in them. Ultimately the faith of God exclusively comes from hearing Him. Not hearing men or woman .We can plant the seed and water.

Rule over not Lord over.

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. Genesis 3;16

 

[7seasrekeyed]

So, you make a statement [ "A pastor is above a teacher but below apostles, prophets & evangelists" - Post #280 ] and it has been pointed out there is no Scriptural support for your claim - Post #310.

Rrather than provide Scriptural support for your claim, you rely on " church with apostolic authority ".

When the truth of Scripture is again laid out for you, your response is to assert that others "have no idea what [ you ] are talking about".

Do you even care what God has to say about the body of Christ and how each member is to function under the Head (the Lord Jesus Christ)? The Lord Jesus Christ is the only One Who is above any other member in the body of Christ (Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church).

apparently he does

and when you get this for a response:

How would you know sense you have no idea what we are talking about

to a reasonable question regarding the order laid out by scripture, you KNOW they believe their (cough cough)
Apostolic 'ministry' is above the Bible

anyone running a church off so called 'prophecies' is rife with error

I had some dealings with the Apostolics and it's a zoo IMO

everything seems to be ordered by prophecies and they consider that as good as actual scripture

now every church or Apostolic person may not be that unbiblical, but the opinions of John indicate that he is that way

 

[7seasrekeyed]

don't know if folks here are current on the latest move of the Apostolics

they have taken things a bit further...or maybe this is more out in the open now...and we have the NAR movement

New Apostolic Reformation...been discussed a length way back in this forum but have not seen anything about it since

article from Got Questions to summarize the movement, plenty of info online if you search

Question: "What is the New Apostolic Reformation?"

Answer: The New Apostolic Reformation, or NAR, is an unbiblical religious movement that emphasizes experience over Scripture, mysticism over doctrine, and modern-day “apostles” over the plain text of the Bible. Of particular distinction in the New Apostolic Reformation are the role and power of spiritual leaders and miracle-workers, the reception of “new” revelations from God, an over-emphasis on spiritual warfare, and a pursuit of cultural and political control in society. The seeking of signs and wonders in the NAR is always accompanied by blatantly false doctrine.

Growth in the New Apostolic Reformation is driven primarily through small groups and church planting, often completely independent of a parent congregation. The movement is not centrally controlled, and many of its followers will not self-identify as part of it or even recognize the name. All the same, thousands of churches and millions of believers adhere to the teachings of the New Apostolic Reformation. Popular teachers associated with the New Apostolic Reformation include C. Peter Wagner, Rick Joyner, and Kim Clement.

The New Apostolic Reformation teaches that God’s intended form of church governance is apostles and prophets, holding leadership over evangelists, pastors, and teachers. However, this has not been the case for the vast majority of Christian history. So, according to the New Apostolic Reformation, God began to restore prophets and apostles over the last thirty to forty years. Only now, as the church is properly guided by the appropriate spiritual leaders, can it fulfill its commission. This commission is seen as more than spiritual, as it includes cultural and political control.

In the New Apostolic Reformation, apostles are seen as the highest of all spiritual leaders, being specially empowered by God. True maturity and unity, per the New Apostolic Reformation, is only found in those who submit to the leadership of their apostles. According to this teaching, as the church unifies behind the apostles, these leaders will develop greater and greater supernatural powers. Eventually, this will include the ability to perform mass healings and suspend the laws of physics. These signs are meant to encourage a massive wave of converts to Christianity. These apostles are also destined to be recipients of a great wealth transfer (in the end times), which will enable the church to establish God’s kingdom on earth.

Prophets in the New Apostolic Reformation are almost as important as apostles. These people have been empowered to receive “new” revelations from God that will aid the church in establishing dominion. According to the New Apostolic Reformation, only prophets, and occasionally apostles, can obtain new revelations. Evangelists, pastors, and teachers cannot. The prophets’ new revelations are crucial to overcoming the world, and the success of the church depends on the apostles following through on the information prophets provide. Most of their prophecies are extremely vague and easy to re-interpret, and the New Apostolic Reformation is willing to modify them, since they set no standard of infallibility for themselves.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

con't

According to New Apostolic thinking, mankind lost its dominion over earth as part of the fall of Adam. So Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross not only resolved our sin debt, but it empowered mankind—specifically, Christians—to retake control of the earth. The New Apostolic Reformation sees seven areas in which believers are supposedly empowered and expected to dominate: government, arts, finances, education, religion, family, and media. Of these, the New Apostolic Reformation sees government as the most important because of its ability to influence all of the other facets of life. As a result, the New Apostolic Reformation overtly encourages Christian control over politics, culture, and business. In some ways, this is nothing unusual, as people should be expected to vote and lobby according to their convictions. The New Apostolic Reformation, however, is often accused of pushing for outright theocracy.

Spiritual warfare, according to the New Apostolic Reformation, is meant to resolve worldly concerns. For example, economic troubles or health problems in a particular city are seen as the result of a demonic spirit’s influence. Prayer, research into the specific name of that demon, and other spiritual disciplines are then applied in an effort to combat this presence. This is necessary not only for the health of the region, but also because the church cannot take “dominion” over that area until the demonic control has been lifted.

Biblically, there are major problems with the New Apostolic Reformation. Claiming that Christians have access to certain spiritual gifts is one thing, but their distinctive approach to the role of apostles and prophets is a stretch from what is found in the Bible. More to the point, the office of apostle requires traits that are impossible today. For example, true apostles must be personal eyewitnesses of the risen Christ (1 Corinthians 9:1; 15:7–8), specifically designated as apostles by Jesus (Galatians 1:1; Acts 1:2; Luke 6:13), and already verified by miraculous signs (Matthew 10:1; 2 Corinthians 12:2; Acts 5:12).

The idea of new revelations from God, especially those that come in the form of vague, easily reinterpreted mysteries, runs counter to the idea of a faith delivered “once for all” to mankind (Jude 1:3). The fact that New Apostolic Reformation prophecies frequently turn out to be false suggests a false spirit behind those predictions (Deuteronomy 18:22).

The same holds true for miracles: the ideological father of the movement, C. Peter Wagner, decreed the end of European Mad Cow disease in 2001—and the disease is still being diagnosed and treated over a decade later. The tendency of the New Apostolic Reformation to treat spiritual warfare as a type of Christianized voodoo is not only unbiblical, but dangerous.

Likewise, the emphasis on an earthly kingdom contradicts Jesus’ own declaration that the Kingdom of God was spiritual, not political (John 18:36). It places an unhealthy emphasis on political and worldly approval, rather than Christlike influence.

Though it uses the word new, the New Apostolic Reformation is actually a reworking of a very common, very old approach. Since the beginning of Christianity, various groups have claimed to have a “new revelation” from God to correct all of the errors of the present world. These movements contend that “real” spirituality or maturity or truth is found only by those who listen to their leadership. Some of these sects, such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormonism, endure and become religions in their own right. Others fade away.

Much of what the New Apostolic Reformation teaches has at least some basis in Scripture, albeit carried much further than the Bible intends. That, however, still makes those doctrines unbiblical, and Christians should flatly reject the New Apostolic Reformation’s teachings and those who choose to be associated with it.

 

[Dino246]

Parables are basically metaphorical stories that use this figure of speech to make a point about a subject not addressed in the parable itself. They are designed to help us walk by faith the unseen understanding again as that not addressed in the parable itself.

Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

"To them that are without" - the unbelievers. To the disciples, Jesus explained everything in plain language. That's the part you keep missing! Parables are designed to hide the truth from the unbelievers, not to help believers walk by faith!

 

[Noose]

Well, at the very least I am grateful you posted that above so that people realize the Saint Apostle Paul did in his many epistles offer his own opinion on matters pertaining to the churches he started.
"I do not permit a woman...." That is a great line in itself to show that it is not God that forbids a woman to teach, preach or prophecy. It was Paul who believed women should not be able to teach or have authority over a man.As that text shows.

However, that is in conflict with Paul's other epistles wherein he praised the women that worked side by side with him so as to deliver the Gospel. And also conflicts with his praise for women prophets.

Paul has given a reason as to why 'he doesn't permit women to teach men' when he goes back to creation. If this is Paul's opinion, then creation is also Paul's own opinion. Think about it.

 

[Noose]

It is about the hierarchy that God established during creation. It is through this hierarchy that sin came to the world, and through the same hierarchy that sin is defeated.

This hierarchy is simple: God - Christ (Bridegroom) - Church (bride)
Christ, being subordinate to God, obeyed God and became one with God, in the same manner, the Church being subordinate to Christ, becomes one with Christ when they obey Him and thus all become one with God. This is the mystery of salvation that is demonstrated through our worldly marriages.

God puts accountability and responsibilities on the one with higher authority in the hierarchy.
Eve sinned but sin was not put on her account but when Adam sinned, he took the responsibility.
The church also sinned but that responsibility was transferred to Christ who pays the price for all those who remain one in marriage with Him by obeying Him.

So, when Paul is talking about child birth, he is simply bringing the issue of hierarchy and simply saying IMO, that women must stay obedient to their husbands.