Why do Dispensationalists teach Separation Theology?

[UnitedWithChrist]

Why is it obvious that it is not to be taken literally?

If you meet another who believes it is literal, a wolf shall lay with a lamb in peace, why would he be incorrect to you?

If that's the scope of his expectations, then he doesn't understand the widespread effects of the reversal of the Fall which occurs at Christ's return.

I would doubt that he understands the radical reversal of the Curse which was imposed in Eden. It isn't primarily about animals and their natures.

 

[Guojing]

If that's the scope of his expectations, then he doesn't understand the widespread effects of the reversal of the Fall which occurs at Christ's return.

I would doubt that he understands the radical reversal of the Curse which was imposed in Eden. It isn't primarily about animals and their natures.

Okay, he is wrong because you think he is wrong.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Gods promises are meaningless

forever does not mean forever,

if amill is true, non of us have any hope, because God can go back on us too

God doesn't break his promises.

The issues are:

1. Were the promises unconditional or conditional?
2. Did Israel fulfill the conditions, if the promises were conditional?
3. Were they fulfilled in some other manner in the past?
4 What were the promises? Were the promises long life in the land, or eternal life?
5. Are these promises going to be fulfilled in a much grander way than initially expected?
6. Are these promises going to be fulfilled to all of Abraham's physical descendants, or all of Abraham's spiritual descendants?

So, I would need to examine each of these promises and ask myself these questions.

In addition, in assessing an individual's understanding, I would ask if this person understands the concept of union with Christ, which teaches that every believer is united with Jesus, and that he becomes a spiritual descendant of Abraham as a result.

Somehow I doubt that very many dispensationalists even consider these factors.

But, I certainly do not believe God is unfaithful to his promises, given the above factors.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Okay, he is wrong because you think he is wrong.

No, his understanding is incomplete because he doesn't understand Scripture correctly.

 

[cv5]

Why wait till the last 7 years? What happened to today if you hear his voice harden not your heart but believe unto salvation? What happens to the Jews that do not trust the new testament in the mean time? How many will be left when he returns. Will he find faith or faithless mankind?

Why?
1) to fulfill prophecy
2) it is Gods soverign choice to do His will as He sees fit
3) to show His Glory and love to Israel
4) to show his glorious wrath to the world

 

[cv5]

God doesn't break his promises.

The issues are:

1. Were the promises unconditional or conditional?
2. Did Israel fulfill the conditions, if the promises were conditional?
3. Were they fulfilled in some other manner in the past?
4 What were the promises? Were the promises long life in the land, or eternal life?
5. Are these promises going to be fulfilled in a much grander way than initially expected?
6. Are these promises going to be fulfilled to all of Abraham's physical descendants, or all of Abraham's spiritual descendants?

So, I would need to examine each of these promises and ask myself these questions.

In addition, in assessing an individual's understanding, I would ask if this person understands the concept of union with Christ, which teaches that every believer is united with Jesus, and that he becomes a spiritual descendant of Abraham as a result.

Somehow I doubt that very many dispensationalists even consider these factors.

But, I certainly do not believe God is unfaithful to his promises, given the above factors.

Kicking Israel to the curb is NOT part of Gods plan.

 

[JohnW34]

Concerning the term "Separation Theology" that is my term in response to their term "Replacement Theology".

They claim that non-dispensationalists believe the Church has replaced Israel. We don't believe that; we believe Israel was the type, and the Church is the fulfillment.

My term of "Separation theology" is meant to be a response to their claim that they separate Jews from Gentiles within the one people of God, and it is based on Ephesians 2 which says there is only one man now, and all are part of the commonwealth of Israel. The church is spiritual Israel and is composed of both Jew and Gentile.

God bless your stand, and your honesty. Clearly some suggest just talking about this subject and sharing is itself wrong.
Praise God the Lord waits patiently for His people to listen, quietly and humbly to Him.

Rev 22:11-12
"Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy. Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done."

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Kicking Israel to the curb is NOT part of Gods plan.

All unbelievers are going to the fire.

All believers are going to glory.

It doesn't matter if they are Jew or Gentile.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Kicking Israel to the curb is NOT part of Gods plan.

By the way..out of interest..

1. Do you believe in eternal security?
2. If so, what difference does your eschatology matter? Unbelievers are being pitched in the fire, and believers are receiving eternal life
and the particular area they dwell in is unimportant.

So, if someone is a descendant of Abraham, and he isn't a believer, he's toast anyways.

And, if you don't believe in eternal security, how do you reconcile that with your concern that Israel is kicked to the curb? If you believe God gives up on some Gentiles, why would Israel be any different than anyone else?

You know, the weirdest dispensationalists are the ones who deny eternal security. Somehow they use the claim that God isn't going to kick Israelites to the curb, yet they believe God kicks the Gentile believer to the curb sometimes.

 

[Guojing]

No, his understanding is incomplete because he doesn't understand Scripture correctly.

Thanks for enlightening us with your wisdom.

 

[pottersclay]

I have been studying end-time events for the last few years, off and on.

The four major views of end-time events come from:

Amillennialism
Historical Premillennialism
Postmillennialism
Premillennial Dispensationalism

I have ordered them according to the ones I find the most credible.

Anyways, if you engage folks who hold the different theologies, you would likely find that Premillennial Dispensationalists are the most nasty, in terms of insults. In fact, one premillennial dispensationalist on this forum told me I was accursed for my position on this issue. The accusation of this individual is the primary reason why I am starting this thread.

The most common claim is that others believe in "replacement theology". This is a term that I find objectionable, because it implies that others don't think God has any purpose for Jewish individuals.

Well, this isn't true. There is only one people of God, Jews and Gentiles together. God doesn't have a separate plan for Jews, and a separate plan for Gentiles.

Scripture clearly teaches that the Church is one people, Jew and Gentile together. They have been united in Christ:

Ephesians 2:11-22 11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.
(ESV Strong's)

Galatians 3:28-29 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
(ESV Strong's)

Additionally, the claim is that non-dispensationalists believe that God is a promise-breaker..not true.

The questions I would have about any promise God made to anyone are:

1. Was the promise unconditional, or was it conditional upon obedience, etc?
2. Was the promise fulfilled already in the past?
3. Is the promise fulfilled in Jesus?
4. Is the promise fulfilled exactly, or is it fulfilled in an even greater way?

No non-dispensationalist I know claims that God is a promise-breaker.

Let me give you an example on where I think dispensationalists don't view Scripture correctly.

Abraham and his descendants were promised the land of Canaan in the OT. Yet, in the NT, we find that Abraham is heir to the WHOLE WORLD.

Romans 4:13 13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.
(ESV Strong's)

Dispensationalists are looking for Abraham's descendants to occupy the Promised Land, but not the whole world, when Scripture says that it is fulfilled in his inheritance of the whole world.

But how is that fulfilled? Jesus is his physical descendant, and all believers, Jew and Gentile, are united through faith with Jesus. Therefore, all of Abraham's descendants, both physical and spiritual, receive this inheritance as co-heirs with Christ.

I don't think the dispensationalist wants you to hear that, though..because they believe in Separation Theology. I don't know if this a term that has already been coined, but it amply describes their position. While they accuse others of being adherents to "Replacement Theology", they themselves believe in Separation Theology.

As I have studied the doctrine of union in Christ heavily, I believe that dispensationalism is abhorrent to God due to this artificial separation of God's people.

By the way, I will anticipate that those on this thread will accuse me of "spiritualizing" away Scripture....and tell me that I am using "allegory". In this attempt, they are simply denying clearly what Scripture says on this particular point. Additionally, there is no spiritualizing of Scripture to realize that God is fulfilling the promises to Abraham and his descendants (both physical and spiritual) through Abraham, who is Jesus' ancestor, and who all believers are joined to.

In fact, I think union with Christ is a sorely neglected topic in the Church, and this neglect has contributed to dispensational doctrine.

The sad thing is that within the USA, dispensationalism is the norm because it is taught by sects that have been heavily involved in evangelizing.

I would recommend the book A Case for Amillennialism by Kim Riddlebarger to understand how dispensational theology doesn't align with the way the apostles interpreted the Old Testament prophecies in the New Testament. It is very clear that dispensationalists are not in alignment with the apostles on this. If you examine John MacArthur on some of the NT texts regarding fulfillment of OT texts regarding Israel by the Church, you will find that he has to do gymnastics to read his dispensationalism into them.



I am attaching a chart that is handy for understanding how dispensationialism views the Millennium.

Lost me right about there😏😏😏

 

[John146]

"All the world" is hyperbole, and is talking about all of the known world. The gospel regarding Jesus had spread throughout the known world around the Mediterranean at that time.

And, to be honest, anyone who has read the Bible seriously should know that the Bible employs hyperbole some times, and this is one of the most obvious cases. If you're a dispensationalist, though, you might not be able to recognize hyperbole.

Do you seriously think that all human beings at the time of Paul had heard the gospel of Jesus Christ? There are people today that have not heard the gospel of Jesus and the Cross, and we have advanced communication technology.

Getting back to the point, though..declaring the teachings of Darby and Scofield as a separate gospel is really strange. It reminds me of the cult I belonged to as a young man. The founder taught that the Millennium was THE TRUE GOSPEL and that this gospel of Jesus and the Cross was not. I guess dispensationalism doesn't go quite that far, but almost.

The phrase "all the world" is used in both passages, the one in Matthew 24 and the one in Colossians 1. It doesn't matter if it means the entire world, or just the known world. Btw, isn't Scripture given by inspiration of God? Was the whole world known unto God?

 

[John146]

Hello John146,

James is indeed speaking to the twelve tribes of Israel, but not in reference to those 144,000 who come out of the unbelieving Israel during the tribulation period. Any Jew from the twelve tribes who became a believer (like Paul, Peter, etc.) who became a believers, belong to the church.

Currently there are Messianic Jews, which belong to the church and there is also the unbelieving nation of Israel, those who did not and do not recognize Jesus as their Messiah. It is the latter that God is going to deal with during the tribulation period.

Simply put, there were Jews during the first century from the twelve tribes of Israel, who believed in Jesus and therefore belong to the church. Remember Pentecost? Three thousand Jews were added to the church in one day. But there are also Jews who are unbelieving, which is symbolically represented by the woman of Revelation 12. During the beginning of the tribulation, there will be 144,000 Israelites who will come out from Israel (gives birth to) who will recognize Jesus as their Messiah. This is the male child.

The phrase "twelve tribes" is used throughout Scripture and never refers to Christian Jews, but the entire nation Israel. To make James a Christian epistle contradicts every other usage in Scripture. I'm not willing to do that.

Yes, James could have been writing to the Jews in his day as the day of the Lord was at hand. But since the Jews rejected their Messiah, the tribulation and kingdom was postponed.

 

[garee]

Why?
1) to fulfill prophecy
2) it is Gods soverign choice to do His will as He sees fit
3) to show His Glory and love to Israel
4) to show his glorious wrath to the world

To fulfill prophecy would be that all nations hear the gospel to include the Jew. It has never been about the flesh of one nation.
And for God to show Love to which Israel ?Born again Israel or natural man like that of Jacob the deceiver before his conversion? The name change was given for some reason.Words do have meanings.

And what glorious wrath, the wrath against the flesh and blood of a person with a Jewish background? Is that why it would be hard to find a new testament Bible in Israel today?

Salvation has nothing to do with the flesh of any nation. Why make it about there flesh as if we did wrestle against flesh and blood and not unseen spirits and principalities?

 

[garee]

The phrase "twelve tribes" is used throughout Scripture and never refers to Christian Jews, but the entire nation Israel. To make James a Christian epistle contradicts every other usage in Scripture. I'm not willing to do that.

Yes, James could have been writing to the Jews in his day as the day of the Lord was at hand. But since the Jews rejected their Messiah, the tribulation and kingdom was postponed.

God never speaks to one nation of flesh and blood but not another. God and not James is writing to whosoever he gives ears to hear the gospel.

12 tribes are used no differently in parables than 12 Apostles. Same gospel . They both represent the same exact thing a promised new incorruptible body .No longer Jew or gentile male or female .

It was never about the corrupted flesh of any nation. Even the Son of man, Jesus rightly proclaimed His corrupted flesh profits for zero.

God is not a man as us.(impossible) He remains without mother or father without beginning of Spirt life or end thereof.

Why make it about the flesh the temporal? What's the hope of a Dispensationalist? God will become a man as us and not remain a eternal Spirt like no other? Why not simply walk by faith the unseen eternal

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal

 

[presidente]

A Jew is one born again inwardly according to the Spirit of Christ not according to the flesh outwardly .The same with Israel, all Israel is not born again Israel or the new name he named personally as his bride Christian, previously called her a Jew or Israel .

Salvation has nothing to do with the corrupted flesh of mankind as if we did wrestle against flesh and blood. like Jacob the deceiver before his born again conversion. Even the Son of man made it clear His flesh profits for nothing.

Clearly, Jews can be saved by faith in Jesus Christ. Paul called himself a Jew. Jesus is a Jew. The twelve apostles were Jewish. Jesus, Who said, 'the flesh profiteth nothing' called a healed Samaritan a foreigner and said 'Salvation is of the Jews.'

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God doesn't break his promises.

The issues are:

1. Were the promises unconditional or conditional?
2. Did Israel fulfill the conditions, if the promises were conditional?
3. Were they fulfilled in some other manner in the past?
4 What were the promises? Were the promises long life in the land, or eternal life?
5. Are these promises going to be fulfilled in a much grander way than initially expected?
6. Are these promises going to be fulfilled to all of Abraham's physical descendants, or all of Abraham's spiritual descendants?

So, I would need to examine each of these promises and ask myself these questions.

In addition, in assessing an individual's understanding, I would ask if this person understands the concept of union with Christ, which teaches that every believer is united with Jesus, and that he becomes a spiritual descendant of Abraham as a result.

Somehow I doubt that very many dispensationalists even consider these factors.

But, I certainly do not believe God is unfaithful to his promises, given the above factors.

Gods promise to Abraham and his descendants are eternal. Not conditional

God did no say if you and your descendants do this I will. He said I will (he actually put Abraham asleep when he made the covenant and walked the path alone sayin I give you and your descendants forever)

 

[cv5]

All unbelievers are going to the fire.

All believers are going to glory.

It doesn't matter if they are Jew or Gentile.

Evidently you are avoiding the question. The Abrahamic and Davidic covenants will without fail be fulfilled to the letter.

 

[cv5]

To fulfill prophecy would be that all nations hear the gospel to include the Jew. It has never been about the flesh of one nation.
And for God to show Love to which Israel ?Born again Israel or natural man like that of Jacob the deceiver before his conversion? The name change was given for some reason.Words do have meanings.

And what glorious wrath, the wrath against the flesh and blood of a person with a Jewish background? Is that why it would be hard to find a new testament Bible in Israel today?

Salvation has nothing to do with the flesh of any nation. Why make it about there flesh as if we did wrestle against flesh and blood and not unseen spirits and principalities?

You don't get it perhaps. The literal specific prophecies pertaining to Abraham, Jacob and David will be fulfilled to the letter.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

All unbelievers are going to the fire.

All believers are going to glory.

It doesn't matter if they are Jew or Gentile.

This is true
but that’s not what this is about
god never promised abrahams descendants would get to heaven he promise them something here on earth

That’s the issue. This is not about salvation and who will get to heaven